Post IEM Katowice discussion

General Discussion
I don’t even know where to start. What a FANTASTIC tournament. Those tournaments with both foreigners and koreans are so much more enjoyable than WCS.

Most games were enjoyable. The ZvZs were absolutely fantastic (Serral vs soO is a must watch).

Overall fantastic performance by Zergs! RagnaroK getting second in the group of death over the GSL champions Gumiho and Innovation after the worst performance of his career in GSL RO32 was phenomenal. The foreigners showed some good games too which was interesting. Icing on the cake is soO taking the championship after starting 0-3 in group stage. (By the way he had the same map score as Maru!! But he advanced and won everything and got a $150k paycheck)

Only disappointment was the performance of Terran players which was way below their normal skill level.

Should we have more tournaments open to both Koreans and the world?

Discuss
03/03/2019 10:37 AMPosted by Velitey

Only disappointment was the performance of Terran players which was way below their normal skill level.


Dude you are as biased for Zerg then many of the "Terran-Whiners" you complain about.

One player can maybe have a bad day and make uncharacteristic mistakes that cost him the game or the series, but if over such a wide playerbase of professional players, the winrate of TvP is <37%, and only 1 terran player make it to the round of 12, then it is not a "dissapointment in the performance" but some balance problems that should be solved.
I agree with the premise of the thread that having more tournaments with a mix of Koreans and foreigners would be a good thing as there isn't enough of them. However, Terran under performance due to the highly likely factor of imbalance definitely ruined IEM. I hope the balance team addresses this issue appropriately in the near future.
03/03/2019 10:53 AMPosted by Raver
I agree with the premise of the thread that having more tournaments with a mix of Koreans and foreigners would be a good thing as there isn't enough of them. However, Terran under performance due to the highly likely factor of imbalance definitely ruined IEM. I hope the balance team addresses this issue appropriately in the near future.


Sure go ahead. Buff terran. Make sure zerg actually gets a counter to ghost liberator while your at it.
03/03/2019 10:45 AMPosted by Sipher
03/03/2019 10:37 AMPosted by Velitey

Only disappointment was the performance of Terran players which was way below their normal skill level.


Dude you are as biased for Zerg then many of the "Terran-Whiners" you complain about.

One player can maybe have a bad day and make uncharacteristic mistakes that cost him the game or the series, but if over such a wide playerbase of professional players, the winrate of TvP is <37%, and only 1 terran player make it to the round of 12, then it is not a "dissapointment in the performance" but some balance problems that should be solved.


One player in the RO12 when 5 other Terrans were literally a map away from qualifying out of groups in such tight competition definitely isn’t enough to say there is a balance problem. There might be one, but this is for the balance team to look at. Everybody agrees Maru didn’t play well. Gumiho, Special, Bunny and uThermal while didn’t necessarily have a terrible day were also a single map off of qualifying and would DEFINITELY have made it playing a little better, none of them stepped up, Zerg and Protoss players did (Neeb beating Maru comes to mind!!) and they 100% deserved their spot in RO12.
03/03/2019 10:53 AMPosted by Raver
I agree with the premise of the thread that having more tournaments with a mix of Koreans and foreigners would be a good thing as there isn't enough of them. However, Terran under performance due to the highly likely factor of imbalance definitely ruined IEM. I hope the balance team addresses this issue appropriately in the near future.

Terran in TvP suffers from being a 2 trick pony. 2 base allins or Bio-mine. Fighting and casting them can be done blindfolded.

If Mech was made more viable in TvP(something I know how to do in a small handful of terran changes, no protoss nerfs required), then TvP would be a different story because it would allow Terrans to go Mech if they don't want to play Bio. Similar to how it is in TvT and TvZ.

To top it off, Mech has a better position for late game then Bio does.
I definitely think tournaments where Foreignors and Koreans playing together is more hype. I would have liked to see more Terran advance but I too think it was small mistakes costing them and they can be pinpointed like Maru triple expanding and canceling units when Leenock is on one base all in. Or Special running into a stasis ward with half the army on a game wining push, that would have been game ending for any race who did that, not exclusive to Terran, but it must be "highly likely factor of imbalance." If you saw Maru vs leenock you saw how broken proxxy rax still is TvZ and if you saw Inno vs Serral you see how strong lategame Terran is vs Zerg. But I probably won't change any Terran minds so there's no point in arguing further.
03/03/2019 11:12 AMPosted by Instinctz
03/03/2019 10:53 AMPosted by Raver
I agree with the premise of the thread that having more tournaments with a mix of Koreans and foreigners would be a good thing as there isn't enough of them. However, Terran under performance due to the highly likely factor of imbalance definitely ruined IEM. I hope the balance team addresses this issue appropriately in the near future.


Sure go ahead. Buff terran. Make sure zerg actually gets a counter to ghost liberator while your at it.


Last time I checked, Zerg has not had any issues dealing with lib/ghost. If a buff is given to Terran then it needs to be geared towards either TvP or simply nerfing Protoss in a way that only affects TvP.

03/03/2019 11:15 AMPosted by MyOhMind
03/03/2019 10:53 AMPosted by Raver
I agree with the premise of the thread that having more tournaments with a mix of Koreans and foreigners would be a good thing as there isn't enough of them. However, Terran under performance due to the highly likely factor of imbalance definitely ruined IEM. I hope the balance team addresses this issue appropriately in the near future.

Terran in TvP suffers from being a 2 trick pony. 2 base allins or Bio-mine. Fighting and casting them can be done blindfolded.

If Mech was made more viable in TvP(something I know how to do in a small handful of terran changes, no protoss nerfs required), then TvP would be a different story because it would allow Terrans to go Mech if they don't want to play Bio. Similar to how it is in TvT and TvZ.

To top it off, Mech has a better position for late game then Bio does.


Either make Mech viable in TvP or make ultra late game TvP viable for improving the design of TvP. Either solution can fix the MU, but both are not necessary. For balance purposes, neither is necessary though.
03/03/2019 11:12 AMPosted by Instinctz
...

Sure go ahead. Buff terran. Make sure zerg actually gets a counter to ghost liberator while your at it.


Last time I checked, Zerg has not had any issues dealing with lib/ghost. If a buff is given to Terran then it needs to be geared towards either TvP or simply nerfing Protoss in a way that only affects TvP.


really. go watch Serral vs Innovation again. i'm hard pressed to come up with a counter to ghost lib at this time.
03/03/2019 11:24 AMPosted by Raver
Either make Mech viable in TvP or make ultra late game TvP viable for improving the design of TvP. Either solution can fix the MU, but both are not necessary. For balance purposes, neither is necessary though.

Making Mech more viable in TvP does help late game TvP since the playstyle is better in the late game.

Making Mech viable in TvP is necessarily for both design and balance. TvP being bio only is a big reason why the match up is so screwed design wise. Protoss has multiple forms of AOE designed to deal with lots of low HP units(what bio is) and that is how it should be.

Protoss doesn't have to be nerfed, Terran needs more playstyle in the options to go other then bio.

As I've said, I know how to make TvP Mech viable with only a few changes(nothing extreme) so the composition both works and looks better.
...

Last time I checked, Zerg has not had any issues dealing with lib/ghost. If a buff is given to Terran then it needs to be geared towards either TvP or simply nerfing Protoss in a way that only affects TvP.


really. go watch Serral vs Innovation again. i'm hard pressed to come up with a counter to ghost lib at this time.


Roach-ling bane corrupter with some infestors for fungal.

Hit them hard, fast and flank them. Ghosts do a bonus vs light and no Terran wants to waste snipe energy on units like roaches.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

really. go watch Serral vs Innovation again. i'm hard pressed to come up with a counter to ghost lib at this time.


Roach-ling bane corrupter with some infestors for fungal.

Hit them hard, fast and flank them. Ghosts do a bonus vs light and no Terran wants to waste snipe energy on units like roaches.

EMP the infestors and it all goes away. GG. literally requires the terran to make mistakes.
when your counter requires your opponent to mess up in order to succeed there is a problem.
03/03/2019 11:36 AMPosted by Instinctz
...

Roach-ling bane corrupter with some infestors for fungal.

Hit them hard, fast and flank them. Ghosts do a bonus vs light and no Terran wants to waste snipe energy on units like roaches.

EMP the infestors and it all goes away. GG.

That is where the roach ling bane comes in to overwhelm the ghosts. Without the ghosts, the liberators die easily to the corrupter.

Terran goes ghosts expecting T3 units, if you don't go T3 units with the ghost count is high you beat them.
No, roaches are not what you want in this scenario. When it comes to ultra late game ghost lib vs zerg your best bet is viper infestor swarm hosts. The difficulty is transitioning from skyzerg back into swarm hosts with this comp. At this point you will be playing an extreme war of attrition. Vibe was the main streamer to use this comp when everyone was turtling with raven ghost. What innovation did was only something a 7k mmr terran can do, Serral probably won't get the same experience against EU terrans.
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EMP the infestors and it all goes away. GG.

That is where the roach ling bane comes in to overwhelm the ghosts. Without the ghosts, the liberators die easily to the corrupter.

Terran goes ghosts expecting T3 units, if you don't go T3 units with the ghost count is high you beat them.


so again, what you're saying is that you have to expect the terran to screw up and make ghosts when you're not actually using T3. dang. again i have to expect the terran to not scout me and screw up.

dang. and guess what? when you use ghost liberator your not just building ghosts and liberators. your mixing in some MMM as well. those are very good at helping to deal with the roach bane ling.
03/03/2019 11:46 AMPosted by thrasher
No, roaches are not what you want in this scenario. When it comes to ultra late game ghost lib vs zerg your best bet is viper infestor swarm hosts. The difficulty is transitioning from skyzerg back into swarm hosts with this comp. At this point you will be playing an extreme war of attrition. Vibe was the main streamer to use this comp when everyone was turtling with raven ghost. What innovation did was only something a 7k mmr terran can do, Serral probably won't get the same experience against EU terrans.


and the problem with swarm host, infestor, viper is that once again, it relies completely on your casters not getting EMPed.

when you literally have to rely on your opponent making a mistake to beat something, there is an issue.
03/03/2019 11:15 AMPosted by MyOhMind
03/03/2019 10:53 AMPosted by Raver
I agree with the premise of the thread that having more tournaments with a mix of Koreans and foreigners would be a good thing as there isn't enough of them. However, Terran under performance due to the highly likely factor of imbalance definitely ruined IEM. I hope the balance team addresses this issue appropriately in the near future.

Terran in TvP suffers from being a 2 trick pony. 2 base allins or Bio-mine. Fighting and casting them can be done blindfolded.

If Mech was made more viable in TvP(something I know how to do in a small handful of terran changes, no protoss nerfs required), then TvP would be a different story because it would allow Terrans to go Mech if they don't want to play Bio. Similar to how it is in TvT and TvZ.

To top it off, Mech has a better position for late game then Bio does.


You have been saying, for a long time, that you have this magical handful of changes that will “fix the game for everyone” and ask the balance team to “reach out to you” for the changes; why don’t you just say what these changes are and stop dangling your imaginary carrot that you think the balance team really wants, if only they would email you!
03/03/2019 11:53 AMPosted by Instinctz
and the problem with swarm host, infestor, viper is that once again, it relies completely on your casters not getting EMPed.


What do you think the swarm hosts/brood lords are for? the liberators? are you just trying to argue?
03/03/2019 11:56 AMPosted by llllllllllll
03/03/2019 11:15 AMPosted by MyOhMind
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Terran in TvP suffers from being a 2 trick pony. 2 base allins or Bio-mine. Fighting and casting them can be done blindfolded.

If Mech was made more viable in TvP(something I know how to do in a small handful of terran changes, no protoss nerfs required), then TvP would be a different story because it would allow Terrans to go Mech if they don't want to play Bio. Similar to how it is in TvT and TvZ.

To top it off, Mech has a better position for late game then Bio does.


You have been saying, for a long time, that you have this magical handful of changes that will “fix the game for everyone” and ask the balance team to “reach out to you” for the changes; why don’t you just say what these changes are and stop dangling your imaginary carrot that you think the balance team really wants, if only they would email you!

You can see them yourself in the Better Game Balance mod, which also has made Lurkers a very viable option in ZvT. For Protoss I'm really working on getting the changes for them right, like I did for TvP Mech and ZvT Lurkers.
03/03/2019 11:53 AMPosted by Instinctz
and the problem with swarm host, infestor, viper is that once again, it relies completely on your casters not getting EMPed.


What do you think the swarm hosts are for? the liberators? are you just trying to argue?

so if i cloak my ghosts and snipe your overseers your swarm hosts locusts are now blind and all i need to do is use that time to emp your vipers and infestors and then i use the remaining window to pick off as many swarm hosts as possible.

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