Post IEM Katowice discussion

General Discussion
Last time I checked, Zerg has not had any issues dealing with lib/ghost. If a buff is given to Terran then it needs to be geared towards either TvP or simply nerfing Protoss in a way that only affects TvP.


really. go watch Serral vs Innovation again. i'm hard pressed to come up with a counter to ghost lib at this time.


I will check it out when I get the chance as I haven't seen it. However, isn't that what Zerg/Protoss always said Terran should do? Tech up instead of staying on bio mine or marine tank all game long.

Do you want it nerfed so Terran can be forced to all in at TvZ like they do with TvP? Terran can use lib/ghost in late game TvP too, but it becomes obsolete once Sky Toss arrives, do you want Terran to be in the same position in TvZ as they are in TvP already?

03/03/2019 11:32 AMPosted by MyOhMind
03/03/2019 11:24 AMPosted by Raver
Either make Mech viable in TvP or make ultra late game TvP viable for improving the design of TvP. Either solution can fix the MU, but both are not necessary. For balance purposes, neither is necessary though.

Making Mech more viable in TvP does help late game TvP since the playstyle is better in the late game.

Making Mech viable in TvP is necessarily for both design and balance. TvP being bio only is a big reason why the match up is so screwed design wise. Protoss has multiple forms of AOE designed to deal with lots of low HP units(what bio is) and that is how it should be.

Protoss doesn't have to be nerfed, Terran needs more playstyle in the options to go other then bio.

As I've said, I know how to make TvP Mech viable with only a few changes(nothing extreme) so the composition both works and looks better.


Obviously Mech viability will help, but I'm just doubtful the balance team will seriously undertake it because they've been promising it since WoL and haven't made Mech viable in TvP once since then. What makes you think that they will suddenly listen to you and do it now?
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really. go watch Serral vs Innovation again. i'm hard pressed to come up with a counter to ghost lib at this time.


I will check it out when I get the chance as I haven't seen it. However, isn't that what Zerg/Protoss always said Terran should do? Tech up instead of staying on bio mine or marine tank all game long.

Do you want it nerfed so Terran can be forced to all in at TvZ like they do with TvP? Terran can use lib/ghost in late game TvP too, but it becomes obsolete once Sky Toss arrives, do you want Terran to be in the same position in TvZ as they are in TvP already?

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Making Mech more viable in TvP does help late game TvP since the playstyle is better in the late game.

Making Mech viable in TvP is necessarily for both design and balance. TvP being bio only is a big reason why the match up is so screwed design wise. Protoss has multiple forms of AOE designed to deal with lots of low HP units(what bio is) and that is how it should be.

Protoss doesn't have to be nerfed, Terran needs more playstyle in the options to go other then bio.

As I've said, I know how to make TvP Mech viable with only a few changes(nothing extreme) so the composition both works and looks better.


Obviously Mech viability will help, but I'm just doubtful the balance team will seriously undertake it because they've been promising it since WoL and haven't made Mech viable in TvP once since then. What makes you think that they will suddenly listen to you and do it now?

oh i agree that they should have a late game option, but when you have a late game option that a zerg literally can't counter outside "hope he makes a mistake" there is an issue.

remember when terrans complained about the HotS swarm host because it drew out games and the terran had to play perfectly and the zerg had to make a mistake for the terran to win?

Ghost liberator feels like that. you can't engage into it, and the terran is literally winning by denying you a base and starving you out while playing defensively.
I will check it out when I get the chance as I haven't seen it. However, isn't that what Zerg/Protoss always said Terran should do? Tech up instead of staying on bio mine or marine tank all game long.

Do you want it nerfed so Terran can be forced to all in at TvZ like they do with TvP? Terran can use lib/ghost in late game TvP too, but it becomes obsolete once Sky Toss arrives, do you want Terran to be in the same position in TvZ as they are in TvP already?

Obviously Mech viability will help, but I'm just doubtful the balance team will seriously undertake it because they've been promising it since WoL and haven't made Mech viable in TvP once since then. What makes you think that they will suddenly listen to you and do it now?

oh i agree that they should have a late game option, but when you have a late game option that a zerg literally can't counter outside "hope he makes a mistake" there is an issue.

remember when terrans complained about the HotS swarm host because it drew out games and the terran had to play perfectly and the zerg had to make a mistake for the terran to win?

Ghost liberator feels like that. you can't engage into it, and the terran is literally winning by denying you a base and starving you out while playing defensively.


I looked at the two games. While, bio/lib/viking/ghost does look strong and viable. It is nowhere near as problematic as ghost/raven was. Lib/ghost is a lot more vulnerable and weaker compared to ghost/raven. I agree that lib/ghost is viable and strong in the late game and ultra late game in TvZ. It is a strong defensive turtle style that works in TvZ.

However, if you nerf lib/ghost or buff Zerg in this regard then Terran will lose its ultra late game viability in the MU. TvZ is in a good state design wise as it has both Mech and Bio ultra late game viability. It would be unfortunate to turn it into TvP. Lib/ghost is not any stronger than it was in the past in LotV. It could also be Serral's achilles heel playstyle wise.

Also, I don't agree with the HotS swarm host comparison as I could see the parallel to ghost/raven, but not to lib/ghost, which has a lot more counter play. On top off that, bio/lib/viking/ghost in TvZ is a very difficult composition to use. Not many Terrans can pull it off so it makes sense that Korean Terrans are the ones that are able to use it the most effectively.
03/03/2019 12:38 PMPosted by Raver
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oh i agree that they should have a late game option, but when you have a late game option that a zerg literally can't counter outside "hope he makes a mistake" there is an issue.

remember when terrans complained about the HotS swarm host because it drew out games and the terran had to play perfectly and the zerg had to make a mistake for the terran to win?

Ghost liberator feels like that. you can't engage into it, and the terran is literally winning by denying you a base and starving you out while playing defensively.


I looked at the two games. While, bio/lib/viking/ghost does look strong and viable. It is nowhere near as problematic as ghost/raven was. Lib/ghost is a lot more vulnerable and weaker compared to ghost/raven. I agree that lib/ghost is viable and strong in the late game and ultra late game in TvZ.

However, if you nerf lib/ghost or buff Zerg in this regard then Terran will lose its ultra late game viability in the MU. TvZ is in a good state design wise for Bio and Mech, it would be unfortunate to turn it into TvP. Lib/ghost is not any stronger than it was in the past in LotV. It could also be Serral's achilles heel playstyle wise.

Also, I don't agree with the HotS swarm host comparison as I could see the parallel to ghost/raven, but not to lib/ghost, which has a lot more counter play. On top off that, bio/lib/viking/ghost in TvZ is a very difficult composition to use. Not many Terrans can pull it off so it makes sense that Korean Terrans are the ones that are able to use it the most effectively.


Please tell me which of those compositions is harder to use, Ghost/LIb or Serrals army? That's not a viable comp, it's a broken comp. And Proxxy rax is still broken.
03/03/2019 12:25 PMPosted by Instinctz
so if i cloak my ghosts and snipe your overseers your swarm hosts locusts are now blind and all i need to do is use that time to emp your vipers and infestors and then i use the remaining window to pick off as many swarm hosts as possible.


no, you siege a terrans expansion while sending waves of locusts, ghosts will be draining their energy while kiting back. Liberators will have to unsiege allowing you to either use your infestors or vipers. An overseer in siege mode outranges a snipe.
looked at the two games. While, bio/lib/viking/ghost does look strong and viable. It is nowhere near as problematic as ghost/raven was. Lib/ghost is a lot more vulnerable and weaker compared to ghost/raven. I agree that lib/ghost is viable and strong in the late game and ultra late game in TvZ.

However, if you nerf lib/ghost or buff Zerg in this regard then Terran will lose its ultra late game viability in the MU. TvZ is in a good state design wise for Bio and Mech, it would be unfortunate to turn it into TvP. Lib/ghost is not any stronger than it was in the past in LotV. It could also be Serral's achilles heel playstyle wise.

Also, I don't agree with the HotS swarm host comparison as I could see the parallel to ghost/raven, but not to lib/ghost, which has a lot more counter play. On top off that, bio/lib/viking/ghost in TvZ is a very difficult composition to use. Not many Terrans can pull it off so it makes sense that Korean Terrans are the ones that are able to use it the most effectively.


Please tell me which of those compositions is harder to use, Ghost/LIb or Serrals army? That's not a viable comp, it's a broken comp. And Proxxy rax is still broken.


Obviously both are difficult compositions to use and no, lib/ghost is not broken. Apparently, Terran having a viable ultra late game suddenly means it's broken. Then it gets nerfed and everyone wonders why Terran stays on T1 and all ins most games. Look to TvP if you want an example of that.
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Please tell me which of those compositions is harder to use, Ghost/LIb or Serrals army? That's not a viable comp, it's a broken comp. And Proxxy rax is still broken.


Obviously both are difficult to compositions to use and no, lib/ghost is not broken. Apparently, Terran having a viable ultra late game suddenly means it's broken. Then it gets nerfed and everyone wonders why Terran stays on T1 and all ins most games. Look to TvP if you want an example of that.


You know that Zerg comp is harder.

Terran has had a late game composition it's only that players don't use it, the only ones oblivious to this was Terran players apparently. I've mentioned ghost/lib for a year now but just ignored and told Terran has no late game comp. You're making the same argument players made about Ravens. "Terran finally has a late game unit and you want it nerfed, look at TvP." I don't even mind Terran having the best late game but that combo to me has seemed busted for a year now and before that it was Raven/Ghost/LIberator which was just disgusting to watch. Whatever they end up doing I just hope Terrans are finally satisfied.
Obviously both are difficult to compositions to use and no, lib/ghost is not broken. Apparently, Terran having a viable ultra late game suddenly means it's broken. Then it gets nerfed and everyone wonders why Terran stays on T1 and all ins most games. Look to TvP if you want an example of that.


You know that Zerg comp is harder.

Terran has had a late game composition it's only that players don't use it, the only ones oblivious to this was Terran players apparently. I've mentioned ghost/lib for a year now but just ignored and told Terran has no late game comp. You're making the same argument players made about Ravens. "Terran finally has a late game unit and you want it nerfed, look at TvP." I don't even mind Terran having the best late game but that combo to me has seemed busted for a year now and before that it was Raven/Ghost/LIberator which was just disgusting to watch. Whatever they end up doing I just hope Terrans are finally satisfied.


How do you know late game Zerg is harder than late game Terran? Have you played late game Terran? Otherwise you're just making assumptions.

I am not going to assume Terran's late game is harder in TvZ, but it clearly is in TvP. Also, lib/ghost pales in strength compared to raven/ghost so that's not a fair comparison.

Nothing was done to make lib/ghost stronger in TvZ recently btw. So it is more like Terrans rediscovering it a while after raven/ghost was nerfed. So no, it requires no nerfs to Terran or buffs to Zerg.

I don't get why Zerg/Protoss freak out whenever Terran discovers a viable ultra late game. Probably because they are so accustomed to winning easily in it so when it becomes a challenge, they automatically think it's broken.
They already have it. It's called BC with whichever support you choose to use. Thor recently was buffed and Tempest nerffedn now what the f.....k you want more?
Enough with this whine.
Have not noticed that the more Blizz buff terran and the more nerff protoss the terran play gets worst and worst?

Your "legitimate concerns" (sic.) are between the chair and the keyboard!
03/03/2019 02:40 PMPosted by Raver
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You know that Zerg comp is harder.

Terran has had a late game composition it's only that players don't use it, the only ones oblivious to this was Terran players apparently. I've mentioned ghost/lib for a year now but just ignored and told Terran has no late game comp. You're making the same argument players made about Ravens. "Terran finally has a late game unit and you want it nerfed, look at TvP." I don't even mind Terran having the best late game but that combo to me has seemed busted for a year now and before that it was Raven/Ghost/LIberator which was just disgusting to watch. Whatever they end up doing I just hope Terrans are finally satisfied.


How do you know late game Zerg is harder than late game Terran? Have you played late game Terran? Otherwise you're just making assumptions.

I am not going to assume Terran's late game is harder in TvZ, but it clearly is in TvP. Also, lib/ghost pales in strength compared to raven/ghost so that's not a fair comparison.

Nothing was done to make lib/ghost stronger in TvZ recently btw. So it is more like Terrans rediscovering it a while after ghost/raven was nerfed. So no, it requires no nerfs to Terran or buffs to Zerg.

I don't get why Zerg/Protoss freak out whenever Terran gets a viable ultra late game. Probably because they are so accustomed to winning easily in it so when it becomes a challenge, they automatically think it's broken.


I asked you to answer if Innovation or Serrals army was harder to control and you can't give me an answer because it's clearly Serrals. You say not to assume but the very next thing you tell me is that Protoss is clearly easier.

Yes, nothing was done about ghost/lib. I've been calling this combo busted for a year, I didn't "automatically think it's broken" and Terran players are still in denial about it like they were the Raven. Terran wasn't given anything, they've been having this broken combo and when people bring it up Terrans still say they have no lategame. This is only new to noobs like you in general discussion who have been claiming you have no late game. BTW mass BC's even before the buffs to BC's and nerfs to Carriers murdered Protoss late game and Libs/Ghost destroyed Zerg. Learn to play your race you trash biased Terran crying about balance. I try to be reasonable with you but you soon reveal what a joke you are. And proxxy raxxx is still stupidly broken before your noob as "rediscovers" Terrans op early game.
How do you know late game Zerg is harder than late game Terran? Have you played late game Terran? Otherwise you're just making assumptions.

I am not going to assume Terran's late game is harder in TvZ, but it clearly is in TvP. Also, lib/ghost pales in strength compared to raven/ghost so that is not a fair comparison.

Nothing was done to make lib/ghost stronger in TvZ recently btw. So it is more like Terrans rediscovering it a while after ghost/raven was nerfed. So no, it requires no nerfs to Terran or buffs to Zerg.

I don't get why Zerg/Protoss freak out whenever Terran gets a viable ultra late game. Probably because they are so accustomed to winning easily in it so when it becomes a challenge, they automatically think it's broken.


I asked you to answer if Innovation or Serrals army was harder to control and you can't give me an answer because it's clearly Serrals. You say not to assume but the very next thing you tell me is that Protoss is clearly easier.

Yes, nothing was done about ghost/lib. I've been calling this combo busted for a year, I didn't "automatically think it's broken" and Terran players are still in denial about it like they were the Raven. Terran wasn't given anything, they've been having this broken combo and when people bring it up Terrans still say they have no lategame. This is only new to noobs like you in general discussion who have been claiming you have no late game. BTW mass BC's even before the buffs to BC's and nerfs to Carriers murdered Protoss late game and Libs/Ghost destroyed Zerg. Learn to play your race you trash biased Terran crying about balance. I try to be reasonable with you but you soon reveal what a joke you are. And proxxy raxxx is still stupidly broken before your noob as "rediscovers" Terrans op early game.


You just want me to admit that lib/ghost is OP when there's no evidence of it other than "Inno beating Serral". Nice singular example. Serral is good, but Inno is no slouch and pretty close in skill. Serral got outplayed in that series by Inno as Inno entered the late game with a lead, it doesn't mean late game TvZ is Terran favored.

Also, the correct answer is lib/ghost takes more skill than the Zerg army if the Zerg knows how to counter it properly and enter the lategame on even or higher supply. I have no clue why you keep bringing up proxy rax since I made no mention of it. Like I said before, Zerg and Protoss whine as soon as the late game becomes balanced because they are used to it being in their favor. Hopefully, the balance team is smart enough to not listen to that nonsense.
03/03/2019 11:12 AMPosted by Instinctz
03/03/2019 10:53 AMPosted by Raver
I agree with the premise of the thread that having more tournaments with a mix of Koreans and foreigners would be a good thing as there isn't enough of them. However, Terran under performance due to the highly likely factor of imbalance definitely ruined IEM. I hope the balance team addresses this issue appropriately in the near future.


Sure go ahead. Buff terran. Make sure zerg actually gets a counter to ghost liberator while your at it.


Infestor Baneling. You're welcome. Terran has the hardest (if not downright under-powered) late game bar none. Here's a clip of a a ZERG PLAYER confirming as much.

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWMcoFgtrO8&feature=youtu.be&t=63
...

How do you know late game Zerg is harder than late game Terran? Have you played late game Terran? Otherwise you're just making assumptions.

I am not going to assume Terran's late game is harder in TvZ, but it clearly is in TvP. Also, lib/ghost pales in strength compared to raven/ghost so that's not a fair comparison.

Nothing was done to make lib/ghost stronger in TvZ recently btw. So it is more like Terrans rediscovering it a while after ghost/raven was nerfed. So no, it requires no nerfs to Terran or buffs to Zerg.

I don't get why Zerg/Protoss freak out whenever Terran gets a viable ultra late game. Probably because they are so accustomed to winning easily in it so when it becomes a challenge, they automatically think it's broken.


I asked you to answer if Innovation or Serrals army was harder to control and you can't give me an answer because it's clearly Serrals. You say not to assume but the very next thing you tell me is that Protoss is clearly easier.

Yes, nothing was done about ghost/lib. I've been calling this combo busted for a year, I didn't "automatically think it's broken" and Terran players are still in denial about it like they were the Raven. Terran wasn't given anything, they've been having this broken combo and when people bring it up Terrans still say they have no lategame. This is only new to noobs like you in general discussion who have been claiming you have no late game. BTW mass BC's even before the buffs to BC's and nerfs to Carriers murdered Protoss late game and Libs/Ghost destroyed Zerg. Learn to play your race you trash biased Terran crying about balance. I try to be reasonable with you but you soon reveal what a joke you are. And proxxy raxxx is still stupidly broken before your noob as "rediscovers" Terrans op early game.


I'll give you an answer. It's Innovation's army. It's harder to use a point target spell that can be canceled than an area one that cannot... This is not a statement that's controversial ANYWHERE but the forums. See post above to hear PiG reiterate exactly that.
Very strange the Bourne reflection. It's a pity that this is only valid for TvZ. Maybe he can comment about the delusion of his terran-collegues that are convinced that Ghost (EMP) and HT (Feedback) have not the same relationship, not considering the huge advantage of Ghosts in other directions (speed, +1 range, invisibility).
Not really sure if Inno vs Serral is the best game to draw conclusions on because Inno entered late game with a significant lead and Serral made mistakes that he normally does not make. Felt like Inno played slightly better in those games.
I agree with instinctz for the most part that ghost/liberater/mmm is easier to control than viper/infestor/whatever else zerg uses. The problem is not that liberator/ghost is broken though, more that zerg has no anti caster or reliable aa splash which has been a problem with the race since wol. As such, zerg is forced into relying on gimmicks like mass abduct, chain fungal, np, or bad positioning from the terran whereas the terran needs to only land a few emps and queue liberator and nuke harass while they sit on pf/turret/sensor towers to win the game. edit: To add, terran also has near infinite scans late game, which require much less apm for the vision they produce than creep/overlord spread.

In terms of IEM, I would generally agree that if a race doesn't make ro8 it's a problem, but looking at this tournament specifically we saw maru 2-0 dark, innovation 2-1 serral, bunny 2-1 soo, and gumiho 2-0 rogue. So while there were some upsets from the zerg side, predominantly from ragnarok and solar, there were also a few upsets from the terran side. That combined with the fact that 4 terrans missed top cut by literally 1 game would suggest this tournament was more likely to be a 1 off for the race, at least for zvt (I skipped watching pvt's so I won't comment on them).
Jesus Christ. The OP pretty much said "that was an amazing tournament and fantastic games and too bad some of the Terrans underperformed" and here come the TCF downvotes
03/03/2019 05:38 PMPosted by madumlao
Jesus Christ. The OP pretty much said "that was an amazing tournament and fantastic games and too bad some of the Terrans underperformed" and here come the TCF downvotes


:(

Too bad. Like everybody, I wanted to see a Maru vs Serral BO7 but Maru massively disappointed. Serral was also not in the best form, but soO breaking his 2nd place curse is one of the best SC2 moment in history.
03/03/2019 05:38 PMPosted by madumlao
Jesus Christ. The OP pretty much said "that was an amazing tournament and fantastic games and too bad some of the Terrans underperformed" and here come the TCF downvotes

I was expecting no less.
03/03/2019 11:36 AMPosted by Instinctz
EMP the infestors and it all goes away. GG.

03/03/2019 11:53 AMPosted by Instinctz
infestor, viper is that once again, it relies completely on your casters not getting EMPed

A) I don't think you understand how EMP works. You need to do two EMPs for a full energy infestor to lose all its energy. It also has a travel time.

B) It's a battle of caster versus caster, and whichever gets their spells off first, and as accurately as possible. Same thing with Templar versus Ghost. You don't get a free pass to cast spells just because you made infestors/vipers.

C) Overseers have their stationary mode which allows you to have more sight and see the army and subsequently the ghosts from longer range as it increases both detection and sight range significantly.

D) Snipe is easily canceled - a single point of damage will force a cancel on snipes, whether it's friendly fire, fungal growth, bane splash, ling hits, ultralisk swipes with their AOE or a poke from hydralisks.

E) Vipers move very quickly - the likelihood that you're going to manage to EMP a Viper is extremely slim because of how fast they move and the fact that EMP has a travel time.

03/03/2019 05:51 PMPosted by Velitey
Too bad. Like everybody, I wanted to see a Maru vs Serral BO7 but Maru massively disappointed. Serral was also not in the best form, but soO breaking his 2nd place curse is one of the best SC2 moment in history.


This was pretty awesome, yes :D

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