What is going on with the ballance.

General Discussion
Hi all.

The nydus timing are overwhelming and also burrow timing and only roaches vs protoss.

Soon will be only zerg and terran on ladder (in fact its almost that)
Nydus may need to be visited with how fast it unloads. It seems to die quickly and gives time to get into position, but the unload rate does seem like it could be a possible issue. Maybe try to make a phoenix to shoo overlords away for the early game if you haven't been.

I recommend you play some Terran and zerg in the time being if you truly feel they are too strong. It'll help you get into the mentality of those players and may expose points of weakness when you notice certain timings or compositions being hard to hold against. A change in perspective is often much better for you than slamming your head into a wall expecting it to move for you.
02/25/2019 10:42 AMPosted by DrFuzzyGlove
Nydus may need to be visited with how fast it unloads. It seems to die quickly and gives time to get into position, but the unload rate does seem like it could be a possible issue. Maybe try to make a phoenix to shoo overlords away for the early game if you haven't been.

It's a strategic tool. You cannot let it unload. Simple as that. Unloading is a game losing scenario so the game state has to be controlled to preclude that scenario from occuring. It's like a siege tank. If tanks siege in a good spot, the game is over, so you need to prevent that scenario from ever occurring.

Once players are good at doing that vs nydus, using XYZ methods, the nydus then becomes a tool to force XYZ response and then to counter that response. It's a strategic tool that is used to control an opponent and their decision making, and punish those who do not consider it.

Right now the decision making is so bad that players are outright dying vs it. Showtime for example could have gone double stargate Phoenix, or at least made 3 phoenix to zone dropalords, and then there would be no way to drop his main or to get vision for a nydus. Protoss meta atm is hyper-dependent on slow clunky immortals, and those are exactly the kind of units the new nydus is intended to exploit. If you make uber-slow units, you will get outmaneuvered.

The reason protoss and terran have been getting away with this for so long is that zerg had no response to it. Zerg armies were low-tech ground armies that are terrain-locked, and as a result there's only 1 pr maybe 2 places where a zerf can attack you from. Naturally defense is then a cinch by investing into uber-slow heavy-hitters like immortals an tanks. These things excell in a direct engagement, but suck in the mobility department, but because zerg armies are terrain-locked, zerg has no way to exploit the fact that the T/P over-invested into slow clunky units. So they can over-invest with no risk or downside.

The nydus changes that. Over-investing into slow clunky armies is now risky and can be punished.
02/25/2019 10:42 AMPosted by DrFuzzyGlove
Nydus may need to be visited with how fast it unloads. It seems to die quickly and gives time to get into position, but the unload rate does seem like it could be a possible issue. Maybe try to make a phoenix to shoo overlords away for the early game if you haven't been.

It's a strategic tool. You cannot let it unload. Simple as that. Unloading is a game losing scenario so the game state has to be controlled to preclude that scenario from occuring. Once players are good at doing that, using XYZ methods, the nydus then becomes a tool to force XYZ response and then to counter that response. It's strategic that is used to control an opponent and their decision making.

Right now the decision making is so bad that players are outright dying vs it. Showtime for example could have gone double stargate Phoenix, or at least made 3 phoenix to zone dropalords, and then there would be no way to drop his main or to get vision for a nydus.

Right, and then he would have so much army to beat hydras + a key.

Double stargate Phoenix is a niche catch by surprise build that is an auto lose if you try to switch into it later. It is 100% momentum based.

3 Phoenix can’t zone 6 dropperlords, it would take literally about 40 seconds for 3 Phoenix to kill all 6 overlords, you don’t even need overlord speed to start the nydus with 6 overlords against 3 Phoenix.

So no, you can’t just make Phoenix, unlike Zerg protoss can’t mass air units from their basic production structure.
...
It's a strategic tool. You cannot let it unload. Simple as that. Unloading is a game losing scenario so the game state has to be controlled to preclude that scenario from occuring. Once players are good at doing that, using XYZ methods, the nydus then becomes a tool to force XYZ response and then to counter that response. It's strategic that is used to control an opponent and their decision making.

Right now the decision making is so bad that players are outright dying vs it. Showtime for example could have gone double stargate Phoenix, or at least made 3 phoenix to zone dropalords, and then there would be no way to drop his main or to get vision for a nydus.

Right, and then he would have so much army to beat hydras + a key.

Double stargate Phoenix is a niche catch by surprise build that is an auto lose if you try to switch into it later. It is 100% momentum based.

3 Phoenix can’t zone 6 dropperlords, it would take literally about 40 seconds for 3 Phoenix to kill all 6 overlords, you don’t even need overlord speed to start the nydus with 6 overlords against 3 Phoenix.

So no, you can’t just make Phoenix, unlike Zerg protoss can’t mass air units from their basic production structure.

All builds are momentum based, sweetie.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Right, and then he would have so much army to beat hydras + a key.

Double stargate Phoenix is a niche catch by surprise build that is an auto lose if you try to switch into it later. It is 100% momentum based.

3 Phoenix can’t zone 6 dropperlords, it would take literally about 40 seconds for 3 Phoenix to kill all 6 overlords, you don’t even need overlord speed to start the nydus with 6 overlords against 3 Phoenix.

So no, you can’t just make Phoenix, unlike Zerg protoss can’t mass air units from their basic production structure.

All builds are momentum based, sweetie.

Right, that’s why solar beat bio/tank with 3 roach max outs. Oh wait...
02/25/2019 10:33 AMPosted by Lis
Hi all.

The nydus timing are overwhelming and also burrow timing and only roaches vs protoss.

Soon will be only zerg and terran on ladder (in fact its almost that)


meanwhile, there are more toss players in gm than ever before..
We need some Terran buffs to fic this issue
Burrow timing? Mass Roach? LMAO !!!!!!!

Nydus is the only thing you should have to worry about in this list. It looks pretty good at this moment but we'll see how good it really is when Protoss players learn to scout and tone down the ridiculous greed.
02/25/2019 01:01 PMPosted by EnVyUsPolt
We need some Terran buffs to fic this issue


Terran for sure has the easiest nydus defense if the 3. A tank is enough to cover 90% of most bases with depots for vision. The tank will kill the nydus before it finishes. So try that out if you're struggling vs nydus play within bases.
I really wish you would enable difficulty selection in player vs AI. I have horrid dexterity(this is why I do not play PvP) and find it really hard to play above medium level. I get to a point where when I get to advanced level I deliberately lose in order to get it back to medium. This is frustrating and time consuming, so I really wish you would enable a freeze --or-- a manual setting like you used to have.
A way to fix it would be to give Armor 10 and health 140.
02/25/2019 02:49 PMPosted by Timaras
I really wish you would enable difficulty selection in player vs AI. I have horrid dexterity(this is why I do not play PvP) and find it really hard to play above medium level. I get to a point where when I get to advanced level I deliberately lose in order to get it back to medium. This is frustrating and time consuming, so I really wish you would enable a freeze --or-- a manual setting like you used to have.


Hey mate, good news : it is possible.

You can create a custom game > Melee > add and AI (top right corner if I remember well) > select AI difficulty + race.

Tell me if you can't find it, once home I can come back to this thread and be more precise if needed.

Have fun :)
I don't think the issue is how fast the Nydus unloads, but the fact that you need very little commitment to pull off such devastating damage. Any unit can be a spotter, even an overseer on observation mode just out of sight range, or the same dropperlords that you are bringing to support, or a burrow roach, or changelings, or lings doing a runby. etc. It's too easy to pop these off anywhere on the map, and the damage they can do is game ending if missed.

Personally, I think they should require creep, which would limit nydus spotters to just creeperlords (not even overseers), and additionally the nydus is "stunned" (cannot build another worm for a minute) if the worm end is killed. I wouldn't mind nyduses keeping their devastating post-unload speed if spotting and striking it down was equivalent to a warp prism.
02/25/2019 02:49 PMPosted by Timaras
really wish you would enable difficulty selection in player vs AI. I have horrid dexterity(this is why I do not play PvP) and find it really hard to play above medium level. I get to a point where when I get to advanced level I deliberately lose in order to get it back to medium. This is frustrating and time consuming, so I really wish you would enable a freeze --or-- a manual setting like you used to have.


Just go to a custom game and manually select the difficulty of the AI.
02/25/2019 10:33 AMPosted by Lis
Soon will be only zerg and terran on ladder (in fact its almost that)

and terra say Soon only Zerg and toss on ladder, because no "late game"
zerg say soon only terra and toss on ladder, because no early air def.
... never ending story.
02/26/2019 10:04 AMPosted by Akriman
02/25/2019 10:33 AMPosted by Lis
Soon will be only zerg and terran on ladder (in fact its almost that)

and terra say Soon only Zerg and toss on ladder, because no "late game"
zerg say soon only terra and toss on ladder, because no early air def.
... never ending story.

Now, as you see the usual protoss posters did not support this guy. This is an important trait of our community. Now, go look at other threads opened by discredited whineterrans (CapShmidt and gadwin): most of the TCF swarmed to give support to those two gems of posters.
^ Wrong, I find these threads childish and pointless. A lot of the whine here, ofc I agree with the matchup being crap something that even in Nov 2017-Jan 2018 apologist PPP denied, and till that ends my support with such whine.
You see one match with a Nydus Worm then come running over to the forums to complain about it. Or you lose games due to it without changing up your game style or adapting to this new strategy. Just sad whine. I personally like the Dark Shrine opener instead of the Templer Archives to get out DT's in a warp prism to see if you can get any early advatage with them. If not, pull back morph em into archons and harass with them. This allows for DT's to be warped in if a nydus worm is spotted morphing in your base. 1 or 2 DT's can kill a morhping worm with Ease.
02/25/2019 10:33 AMPosted by Lis
Hi all.

The nydus timing are overwhelming and also burrow timing and only roaches vs protoss.

Soon will be only zerg and terran on ladder (in fact its almost that)


Sorry I'm jumping on the dislike train :)

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