P vs Z & P vs T

General Discussion
Vs Z: Mutas gone wild, I tell you! While I'm sure they're still great vs a lot of types of play, I'm just messing.

I either want to give congrats or have someone talk some sense into me. This is the first time I've played SC 2 since WoL where P vs Z felt winnable. Like, you actually have a chance to win a game, as opposed to your opponent losing games. You had no control over outcomes in the past, unless you did all-ins, maybe.

This matchup feels like you what you'd expect to feel when a matchup improves by at least 5% in your favor. Due to the strength of vipers, in particular, Zerg should probably never lose at the highest level. That said, for us plebs, who aren't seeing the trump cards played or played well, I'd dare say this matchup is Toss favored.

If I were to demand a nerf for a Zerg unit, it would be the swarm host. It's been waaaaay faster than makes any sense, forever. It should be one of the slowest units in the game, yet... it's faster than any unit I can make, basically?

Why not make tanks the fastest unit in the game? If you can call that dumb or think of reasons why it shouldn't be the fastest unit in the game, how about applying that common sense to the Zerg equivalent...

Zerg has had so many overpowered options, for so long, that they rarely even use some of the most broken units in the game, thus some things don't get fixed, yet their use lags behind, clouding the difficulty in judging balance (given players choose strats incorrectly after changes).

P vs T: What am I missing here? Liberators still own life, by countering every unit in the game, while also being the best form of harass.. Banshees are the most underrated unit in the game, by a large amount. Ravens counterfeit armies.... BCs are a dream unit, but unfortunately I've yet to wake up from the nightmare... Thus playing against sky terran might be worse than playing against broodlord, infestor ever was.

Thors now "1 shot" every expensive unit in the game... Anyone can have a good win rate by simply doing tank pushes. Medivacs apparently cost nothing. Non stop drops. Like watching cars turn left in nascar. Riveting and unpredictable.

How is Toss winning this matchup? To me, this matchup feels FAR more Terran favored than Zerg is favored over Toss. The only difference is the "non Korean Terran factor."

With the state of Terran, I EXPECT Special to win IEM (well, I guess Maru would if Terran owns...).
sry to say this, but its clearly a l2p issue.

toss has a hardcounter to every zerg unit. mutas? go blink stalker + archons. roaches? go double robo immortal. hydras? go colossi.
oh and obv, everything with storm and zerg just melts, if not controlled properly.

you want to nerf swarmhost speed.. like rly? they are allrdy SOOO damn slow offcreep. again, this is a l2p issue. theyre fine!

same goes for pvt. toss has a good answer to everything. liberators? go tempest. sounds crazy, but no terran goes directly into mass libs without bio/medivac support. by the time, you see 6+ libs, you allrdy should have 2-3 stargates.

ravens are good, if controlled good. use feedback on them and theyre useless. if you get hit by anti armor missle or the matrix, go back and reengage. its also not that hard to micro against it.

if you let the terran get to mass bc, you did something wrong in that game, so mass bc shouldnt be even a thing.

thors.. lol.

i dont wanna support terran whiners on this forum, but seriously. the power of chargelots + blink stalker + immortals + storm + colossi.. is just insane. and i didnt even talk about the upgrade advantage because of chrono..

theres a reason, why you never see a terran on 3+ bases against toss, because in mid/lategame, theres just no way to win for an equally skilled terran.

if you lose a macro game against terran, its because he was FAR better than you. sorry for telling you the truth.
02/27/2019 04:50 AMPosted by TryHarD
sry to say this, but its clearly a l2p issue.

toss has a hardcounter to every zerg unit. mutas? go blink stalker + archons. roaches? go double robo immortal. hydras? go colossi.
oh and obv, everything with storm and zerg just melts, if not controlled properly.

you want to nerf swarmhost speed.. like rly? they are allrdy SOOO damn slow offcreep. again, this is a l2p issue. theyre fine!


I was joking about mutas, since I'm notorious for complaining about them. I've tailored my build, basically, to solely counter mutas. Given that + shield batteries making cannons actually worth their cost versus mutas, it's not an issue anymore.

The carrier build time reduction helps a ton, too; when everything has a reasonable build time, you're able to wait for units to finish if needing to build phoenix, generally.

There's no real "learn to play issue," given I just said I think Toss is favored at my MMR. I mean, last I saw, I was winning over 60% vs Zerg this season, despite having not played in over 4 months.

I also think the only person to beat me with swarm hosts was TLO... But, it's always been obvious as can be that swarm hosts are WAY TOO FAST. We're not talking about needing to tone something down a notch. The swarm host is a practical joke to begin with, with this "free unit" stuff.

Throw in the speed? I mean... come on... that's just someone having a big laugh at your (non zerg players) expense. To take that unit seriously... a creator is going to die from laughing. You've got to be an idiot to even take the unit seriously.

Here is what I think. The disruptor should be able to attack you from across the map, and it should be able to outrun any unit the opposition can make. If they lose to that, that's totally a learn to play issue! I mean... lol. Come on.

As for P vs T: I go tempests all the time. Have done so all of LotV. The new tempest feels just as bad against Terran, if not worse (I prefer the prior one). The new one... it's like trying to battle tier 3 units with sentries without guardian shield.

Why would you lol at thors? When is the last time you made one? They freaking annihilate everything. Just made an expensive tempest or carrier? Watch a thor instantly kill it from a mile away...

Terran is too cost effective late game to fight them. Mass BCs? Terran can win a game through simply rushing 1 BC. That's how stupidly insane that unit is. Mass BCs? Good lord. Don't even put that horror in my mind. I'd rather have dead babies on my mind.

P vs T is another matchup at 60% for LotV. I'm saying the learn to play is from the Terran side. Everything they have is "maxed out." Like their units couldn't get better...

As strong as Terran pushes are, why win at the 14 minute mark if you can win at the 6 minute mark? Takes a lot less skill to execute a strong 2 base timing than to win a macro game, too. Just because something is more advantageous to a race doesn't mean they're at a disadvantage if they play for the late game.

Non Korean Terrans have a history of finding a way to lose. If the game is even remotely balanced for them... I'm saying... I don't know why a Korean Terran would ever lose given this state. P vs Z is at its easiest/most balanced state. P vs T? Terran has all the tools and then some to spare.
if you lose in lategame vs terran as a protoss it's 100% a l2p issue
02/27/2019 06:49 AMPosted by WST
if you lose in lategame vs terran as a protoss it's 100% a l2p issue


The "ultimate late game Toss army" has more to do with Terran just being on bio than anything else. In P vs Z, you can salivate over having carriers, void rays, disruptors, templars and w/e. In P vs T, what is there to even get excited about?

Simple liberator spam already counters nearly anything you can make. If Terrans can't win late game now, what would it take for them to win? 1 BC that can kill a maxed out Toss army? A thor that can kill 5 carriers at once?

What unit could be better than it is now?
as the guys above said,just l2p
if you want it to be more exact, just play like stats
Thanks for being the 3rd protos whiner thread on the horizon
Guys the OP is clearly joking...
^ baahaha he's like the Protoss tehbatz or protoss av*lo, there is no joking behind long posts since forever (notice how I skip the word av*lo, cause the guy will earn a lot from how many times his name is mentioned).
So you made a post describing your opinion on balance at your specific small range of MMR? Who cares? There's tons of other ranges of MMR, which just makes this a silly thing to talk about.
i read this post. wow what a waste of time. just anouther protoss trolling the forums thinking he can counter argument cause thats what terrans do. I have advice for you protoss. learn to play. that way you will realize how bullied terran is in the match up. ya'll are ego maniacs who can't admit when somethings wrong cause it was cause you to loose precious ladder points. all protoss deserve to drop about 500 points mmr in order to balance this !@#$
02/27/2019 04:50 AMPosted by TryHarD
sry to say this, but its clearly a l2p issue.

toss has a hardcounter to every zerg unit. mutas? go blink stalker + archons. roaches? go double robo immortal. hydras? go colossi.
oh and obv, everything with storm and zerg just melts, if not controlled properly.

you want to nerf swarmhost speed.. like rly? they are allrdy SOOO damn slow offcreep. again, this is a l2p issue. theyre fine!

same goes for pvt. toss has a good answer to everything. liberators? go tempest. sounds crazy, but no terran goes directly into mass libs without bio/medivac support. by the time, you see 6+ libs, you allrdy should have 2-3 stargates.

ravens are good, if controlled good. use feedback on them and theyre useless. if you get hit by anti armor missle or the matrix, go back and reengage. its also not that hard to micro against it.

if you let the terran get to mass bc, you did something wrong in that game, so mass bc shouldnt be even a thing.

thors.. lol.

i dont wanna support terran whiners on this forum, but seriously. the power of chargelots + blink stalker + immortals + storm + colossi.. is just insane. and i didnt even talk about the upgrade advantage because of chrono..

theres a reason, why you never see a terran on 3+ bases against toss, because in mid/lategame, theres just no way to win for an equally skilled terran.

if you lose a macro game against terran, its because he was FAR better than you. sorry for telling you the truth.


Sounds like you got a l2p issue as well
02/27/2019 12:01 PMPosted by Kyobi
02/27/2019 04:50 AMPosted by TryHarD
sry to say this, but its clearly a l2p issue.

toss has a hardcounter to every zerg unit. mutas? go blink stalker + archons. roaches? go double robo immortal. hydras? go colossi.
oh and obv, everything with storm and zerg just melts, if not controlled properly.

you want to nerf swarmhost speed.. like rly? they are allrdy SOOO damn slow offcreep. again, this is a l2p issue. theyre fine!

same goes for pvt. toss has a good answer to everything. liberators? go tempest. sounds crazy, but no terran goes directly into mass libs without bio/medivac support. by the time, you see 6+ libs, you allrdy should have 2-3 stargates.

ravens are good, if controlled good. use feedback on them and theyre useless. if you get hit by anti armor missle or the matrix, go back and reengage. its also not that hard to micro against it.

if you let the terran get to mass bc, you did something wrong in that game, so mass bc shouldnt be even a thing.

thors.. lol.

i dont wanna support terran whiners on this forum, but seriously. the power of chargelots + blink stalker + immortals + storm + colossi.. is just insane. and i didnt even talk about the upgrade advantage because of chrono..

theres a reason, why you never see a terran on 3+ bases against toss, because in mid/lategame, theres just no way to win for an equally skilled terran.

if you lose a macro game against terran, its because he was FAR better than you. sorry for telling you the truth.


Sounds like you got a l2p issue as well


im not the one who whines.
02/27/2019 11:01 AMPosted by SwankyTiger
So you made a post describing your opinion on balance at your specific small range of MMR? Who cares? There's tons of other ranges of MMR, which just makes this a silly thing to talk about.


I care (maybe not), and apparently those who make threads about me do. I've always tried to be as objective as one can be, but... Toss has always sucked against Zerg. I have a GM MMR, so it's not like I'm saying Toss is good or bad at Platinum.

Toss has been so atrocious versus Zerg, for the entirety of SC 2, that it has been hard to play games beyond a week after returning. Now... for the first time in history, I think Toss is actually favored.

But, like I said, you can only speak about the level you play at. I find it hard to believe Zerg wouldn't hard counter anything you do with vipers, at the most competent and skilled level.

Obviously a nydus should cost more and swarm hosts are too fast, but you'd still rather be Toss than Zerg, IMO, in this matchup (non pro level).

Protoss versus Terran. The opposite. Terran should win... I just saw interference matrix is 50 energy. One of the best spells in the game costs the bare minimum? Give me a break. If Terran doesn't abuse that absurdity alone to an IEM win, the fix is in.
02/27/2019 06:49 AMPosted by WST
if you lose in lategame vs terran as a protoss it's 100% a l2p issue

What if you are consistently winning with Terran in late PvT?

Make liberators and Vikings. Skyterran is actually good.
Sorry can't go straight into disruptor tempest anymore
TLDR

It's 2019 and Playa is still massing void ray colossus and hasn't yet realized Phoenix hard counter mutas.
02/27/2019 01:17 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
TLDR

It's 2019 and Playa is still massing void ray colossus and hasn't yet realized Phoenix hard counter mutas.


TLDR: Playa played for YEARS while P vs Z never even hit 50%. Now that it has finally achieved 50% during a time I played, I think the matchup favors Toss. And that's not going off stats.

It doesn't get any more grounded in reality than that. And that's with aligulac being at 43% for this period so far: http://aligulac.com/periods/latest/

If your race even experienced 45%, at any point in time, you'd be thrilled to even be in Masters league. The ignorant due to being spoiled race.
02/27/2019 01:24 PMPosted by PointsThief
TLDR: Playa played for YEARS while P vs Z never even hit 50%.

Yes. That's the problem. You have the same exact mindset and play the same exact style that you have always played while complaining about the same things you always do yet you keep doing the same old thing even when you acknowledge how bad it is.

The game has changed. The meta has changed. The player pool has changed. Yet your problems stay the same. Clearly the common denominator is you and your bad playstyle. Mutas aren't a problem for protoss. Learn to play.
02/27/2019 12:12 PMPosted by TryHarD
02/27/2019 12:01 PMPosted by Kyobi
...

Sounds like you got a l2p issue as well


im not the one who whines.


but you did whine on this post

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