Proxy BCs are the next step

General Discussion
Remember when people said the issue with BCs was simply that it wasn't scouted? lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCfNWm8T-kg
Protoss has no excuse losing to a 1 base proxy bc meme, Harstem was on auto pilot.
He lost to 1base BC? I hear the circus is in town.
02/24/2019 05:56 PMPosted by MakeDepots
He lost to 1base BC? I hear the circus is in town.


That first BC killed like 6 stalkers, 1 phoenix, 1 sentry, 7 probes, and 1 pylon.

Thats 1400 min, 400gas, 16 army supply, 23 total supply.

The second BC killed 8 probes, 1 stalker, and 2 phoenixes. That's 825 min, 250 gas, 4 army supply, 12 total supply.

People claiming that BCs "suck at engagements" need to have a firmer grasp of reality.
02/24/2019 07:51 PMPosted by madumlao
02/24/2019 05:56 PMPosted by MakeDepots
He lost to 1base BC? I hear the circus is in town.


That first BC killed like 6 stalkers, 1 phoenix, 7 probes.

Thats 1250 min, 300gas, 14 army supply, 21 total supply.

The second BC killed 8 probes, 1 stalker, and 2 phoenixes. That's 825 min, 250 gas, 4 army supply, 12 total supply.

People claiming that BCs "suck at engagements" need to have a firmer grasp of reality.

Yes, and that kind of damage in that stage (early game) is lethal.
02/24/2019 07:51 PMPosted by madumlao
02/24/2019 05:56 PMPosted by MakeDepots
He lost to 1base BC? I hear the circus is in town.


That first BC killed like 6 stalkers, 1 phoenix, 1 sentry, 7 probes, and 1 pylon.

Thats 1400 min, 400gas, 16 army supply, 23 total supply.

The second BC killed 8 probes, 1 stalker, and 2 phoenixes. That's 825 min, 250 gas, 4 army supply, 12 total supply.

People claiming that BCs "suck at engagements" need to have a firmer grasp of reality.


And 10 mutas can kill infinite marines when they come out 1 by 1, that doesn't make mutas good against Marines. Two Sentries and one Stalker with no Shield battery doesn't defend against any 1 base play whether it comes from Terran, Protoss, or Zerg. Harstem would have lost even harder if it had just been a simple 2 rax reaper play, or a 3 rax Conc/Shields timing. He lost because he didn't scout properly, not because of a Battlecruiser.
What is the point of proxying the BC when it can warp from anywhere on the map to anywhere on the map?.

TJ should require vision to TJ to a location. For all the whine about recall and nydus you actually need vision to do those.
02/24/2019 09:41 PMPosted by MyOhMind
What is the point of proxying the BC when it can warp from anywhere on the map to anywhere on the map?.

TJ should require vision to TJ to a location. For all the whine about recall and nydus you actually need vision to do those.

The Protoss knows it's a proxy build but has no idea what kind. Then a BC shows up instantly and he's !@#$ed. There's zero scouting and zero reaction time and zero ability to slow the push and zero defenders advantage. All the traditional ways of dealing with early game aggression simply aren't options vs BCs. You make a list of all the possible ways to deal with early game aggression, and the only way to do so vs BCs is to scout it in time to be 100% prepared and that's not practical in most game scenarios.

The early game is far too fragile due to how hard it is to keep up with Terran's macro and tech and economic advancements. This REQUIRES very precise, minimal commitments to defense in order to keep up. Players buffer the attack by, for example, squeezing out a bit of a better economy and they can do this because there is a travel time cost the opponent has to pay. So if you have two protoss doing the same builds, the defensive one can slow his build down a bit in favor of probes, get the same units and defend and get a lead. VS bcs things like this are not possible, because it instantly appears over your base. Any option is non-viable except the best option of know it's BCs, and being 100% perfectly prepared, but the early game is too ambiguous to do that with enough precision to get an economic lead.
02/24/2019 07:51 PMPosted by madumlao
02/24/2019 05:56 PMPosted by MakeDepots
He lost to 1base BC? I hear the circus is in town.


That first BC killed like 6 stalkers, 1 phoenix, 1 sentry, 7 probes, and 1 pylon.

Thats 1400 min, 400gas, 16 army supply, 23 total supply.

The second BC killed 8 probes, 1 stalker, and 2 phoenixes. That's 825 min, 250 gas, 4 army supply, 12 total supply.

People claiming that BCs "suck at engagements" need to have a firmer grasp of reality.


And that was without Yamato...
Yeah i guess if Protoss doesn't see anything vs Terran on B1, they need to blindly build at least one shield battery per base at 4min30 (a bit like Zerg with spores when you don't know what's terran is doing). Else it doesn't seem to be scoutable.

Even at the end, i think harstem would have defended if he built some shield batteries in front of his natural.
02/24/2019 09:25 PMPosted by Crunch
And 10 mutas can kill infinite marines when they come out 1 by 1, that doesn't make mutas good against Marines. Two Sentries and one Stalker with no Shield battery doesn't defend against any 1 base play


Was it 2 sentries? Then it was even harder in the BC favor.

2 sentries and 3 stalkers, with 3 on the way - and even those were delayed - would 100% deflect dedicated ling aggression with a front wall.

He didn't engage 2 sentries + 1 stalker at a time. He engaged with 1 sentry + 3 stalkers, then another 3 stalkers plus phoenix. Heck the initial engage was already roughly resource equivalent + supply advantage against the BC and that didn't matter.

Your scenario is 10 mutas vs "an infinite number of marines one at a time". That's not equivalent. What happened is more of 4 mutas vs "8 marines at a time".
02/24/2019 09:41 PMPosted by MyOhMind
What is the point of proxying the BC when it can warp from anywhere on the map to anywhere on the map?.


Proxy serves 2 purposes. 1, it changes the scouting game to have a random element, because unless you find the exact proxy location, you don't know what to prepare. While normally the kind of wall already tells you that it's a proxy at all, here the only information that gives it away as a proxy is that the tech is "kinda late". In fact with a little manipulation on the build it would not necessarily be distinguishable from a defensive macro situation. Second, if the starport is not scouted, the BCs can slowpush from the proxy location and have defensive tactical jump ready.

As people have already said before "you should just scout" is not a solution if a late game unit pops out at stalker tech, because - just as we predicted months ago - the next step is that people are just gonna proxy BCs.
At this point I wouldn't be against a build time increase for the Fusion Core, because of both BCs and Libs. If you don't wanna mess with Libs, then I know a popular suggestion is to make Tac Jump an upgrade.

Still, I want to see more games where proxy BC is used before I'm too dogmatic about it.
02/24/2019 11:42 PMPosted by NinjaDuckBob
At this point I wouldn't be against a build time increase for the Fusion Core, because of both BCs and Libs. If you don't wanna mess with Libs, then I know a popular suggestion is to make Tac Jump an upgrade.

Still, I want to see more games where proxy BC is used before I'm too dogmatic about it.
I don’t mind if they decide to nerf the early game harrass ability of the BC as long as they exchange it for lategame power. As it stands it’s just decent in the lategame vs other races and not something to tech to in the lategame. Increase its build time and make it strong in the lategame by increasing its attack to ground damage and decrease its fire rate so armor is less effective. Like they did with the stalker base DPS make it hit harder so it’s lategame viability vs Protoss / Zerg more effective
They don't need to "exchange" it for lategame power. It HAS lategame power as-is. The fact is it can achieve these gains in the small scale, and there is nothing preventing it from scaling up. By contrast, most mass anythings don't scale even remotely as well. Mass hydras, mutas, phoenixes, zealots, zerglings, heck even rines don't get the same value. Either they don't stack or their stacking puts them at risk for other effects.
You want a link for Ty mass bc game where he was crushed ? Apparently just link some random clip is a good balance argument now ....
02/24/2019 11:11 PMPosted by madumlao
As people have already said before "you should just scout" is not a solution if a late game unit pops out at stalker tech, because - just as we predicted months ago - the next step is that people are just gonna proxy BCs.


Just hope your protoss opponent scouts with an oracle at 4 minutes in, no excuse.
TCF in damage-control mode. They understand that their BC is an unbalanced BS, but want to "trade" it for.......even more late-game power.
Sure, why not? Give it the Mothership status, Supply 8 and one BC for each CC/Planetary.
The only way to balance this BS unit is to have the Recall constraint: 3-4 sec of vulnerability while jumping in/out.
It's honesly hilarious when terrans try to claim their flying high dps high armor capital ship equipped with a 250 dmg burst ability and instant teleport that doesn't cost energy doesn't scale well into the late game.
02/25/2019 06:01 AMPosted by Gooba
TCF in damage-control mode. They understand that their BC is an unbalanced BS, but want to "trade" it for.......even more late-game power.


No need watched the actual game and it's laughable. I gotta respect Madumlao he hasn't shied away from stating that nydus has similar traits.

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