At which level does mech stop working in TvP?

General Discussion
If we assume that both players are of similar skill, at which level does mech stop working in TvP?

Since I am a diamond player I know from experience that mech works in diamond. Also we almost never see mech in TvP at pro level so we can assume it does not work on pro level.

But at which level does mech stop working in TvP?
I'd say probably around Master's level.

It's very hard to pull off regardless of what level you're at, but I'd say it only really stops being viable at all around mid to high Master's. That's the level that Protoss players really learn how to harass and exploit the immobility of Mech compositions.

That said, there are some high level players that do make it work here and there, I just wouldn't rely on it as a main go to strategy.
Around 4k is where players start really figuring it out. You can still win with it, but for every Protoss who is completely clueless how to beat it, there's another who just jumps on it with both feet. You aren't going to have a positive win rate if it's all you do by any means.
High diamond
04/05/2019 02:36 AMPosted by YOUWANTOGRYN
High diamond


It can't be in in high Diamond. I am in D1 and have 55% in TvP playing only macro games aiming for the late game.
Supernova is 6.2K on kr by playing bc mech vs Protoss. But the point is, why play a style that you have to outplay your opponent 5 times.
Anyways he mixes in bio pretty frequently.
there is a terran and streamer Awers https://www.rankedftw.com/team/1346074/#td=world&ty=c&ra=best&tyz=0&tx=a&tl=1 mech terran, plays only mech in all matchups at 5,7-6k mmr
Well gumiho went mech in a game against protoss. Now there is only one game as an example, this was before the more recent rework, and he had gotten a lead early. He won as well, so now that the cyclone is better for midgame comps it's possible it's viable all the way up. The thing is, bio is likely just better and it's more familiar to terrans. So it may not be that mech isn't viable, it's just not as good as bio so it's not used.
It depends on the opponent.

Some Protoss players don't know how to deal with mech, even up to GM level. This is common since mech is rarely played and the strategies to play against it don't seem to be widely circulated apart from Chargelot-Archon-Immortal (one of the most braindead options if you go for a standard death-ball style game).

That means you can pull mech off at GM, although you will probably lose to anyone who knows how to play against it even if they are much worse than you; and the higher level you go the more likely the opponent is simply going to have the mechanics to drop/warp you to death with Zealots.
It works all the way through to low GM.
04/05/2019 07:37 AMPosted by TerranicII
Chargelot-Archon-Immortal
Actually Archons aren't good against Cyclones and Immortals are a better joke against them.

I personally think, classical Mech (Tank focussed) isn't a good choice vs. Toss - aggressively played Battlemech (Cyclone focussed) on the other hand...

I mean, you're save against early shenanigans like Oracles and you're in a good position against pretty much every classical counter to Mech (esp. Immortals and early air units) as well as drops (theoretically). The only thing you have to worry about early on is getting enclosed by Chargelots (Mines help btw.) and later on you have to watch out for Disruptors (but hey, unlike Tanks, you can at least micro Cyclones vs. Purification Novas). Yes, trapped means dead - but as long as you watch out and use Lock-on to hit-and-run, I don't know why it shouldn't work up unto a very high level even if people figure out a little better how you're supposed to play against it.
04/05/2019 10:39 AMPosted by Quotenfrau
04/05/2019 07:37 AMPosted by TerranicII
Chargelot-Archon-Immortal
Actually Archons aren't good against Cyclones and Immortals are a better joke against them.

I personally think, classical Mech (Tank focussed) isn't a good choice vs. Toss - aggressively played Battlemech (Cyclone focussed) on the other hand...

I mean, you're save against early shenanigans like Oracles and you're in a good position against pretty much every classical counter to Mech (esp. Immortals and early air units) as well as drops (theoretically). The only thing you have to worry about early on is getting enclosed by Chargelots (Mines help btw.) and later on you have to watch out for Disruptors (but hey, unlike Tanks, you can at least micro Cyclones vs. Purification Novas). Yes, trapped means dead - but as long as you watch out and use Lock-on to hit-and-run, I don't know why it shouldn't work up unto a very high level even if people figure out a little better how you're supposed to play against it.


Blink stakers are very good vs cyclones. When blink finishes getting researched the effectiveness of the cyclone in fights drops significantly. Since they start to trade really poorly.
At the noob's level.
04/05/2019 10:39 AMPosted by Quotenfrau
Actually Archons aren't good against Cyclones and Immortals are a better joke against them.

I personally think, classical Mech (Tank focussed) isn't a good choice vs. Toss - aggressively played Battlemech (Cyclone focussed) on the other hand...

I mean, you're save against early shenanigans like Oracles and you're in a good position against pretty much every classical counter to Mech (esp. Immortals and early air units) as well as drops (theoretically). The only thing you have to worry about early on is getting enclosed by Chargelots (Mines help btw.) and later on you have to watch out for Disruptors (but hey, unlike Tanks, you can at least micro Cyclones vs. Purification Novas). Yes, trapped means dead - but as long as you watch out and use Lock-on to hit-and-run, I don't know why it shouldn't work up unto a very high level even if people figure out a little better how you're supposed to play against it.

Cyclones vs Protoss... Are you aware they get 2 shot by immortals? Killed by chargelots? Blink stalkers? Hell, even adepts trade ok vs them... Only thing Protoss could build in gateway that loses to it cost/cost is sentry.
I am Diamond and I only go mech vs Protoss - heavy on Hellbats, Tanks, Banshee, Widow Mine. My winrate is about 50%, don't remember exactly what it is.
04/05/2019 12:09 PMPosted by Platys
Cyclones vs Protoss... Are you aware they get 2 shot by immortals? Killed by chargelots? Blink stalkers? Hell, even adepts trade ok vs them... Only thing Protoss could build in gateway that loses to it cost/cost is sentry.
What about you just try it? Instead you theorycraft with wrong data (no, they don't get 2-shot by immortals). Moreover, you assume a straight out battle instead of using guerilla tactics with Lock On (which is how Cyclones are used).
I played TvP with and against them - with Mag-Field Accelerator they totally wreck immortals if controlled properly. Neither Zealots nor Stalkers nor Adepts are a problem - Charge and Blink on the other hand are, at least if you're not really careful.
04/05/2019 02:44 PMPosted by Quotenfrau
04/05/2019 12:09 PMPosted by Platys
Cyclones vs Protoss... Are you aware they get 2 shot by immortals? Killed by chargelots? Blink stalkers? Hell, even adepts trade ok vs them... Only thing Protoss could build in gateway that loses to it cost/cost is sentry.
What about you just try it? Instead you theorycraft with wrong data (no, they don't get 2-shot by immortals). Moreover, you assume a straight out battle instead of using guerilla tactics with Lock On (which is how Cyclones are used).
I played TvP with and against them - with Mag-Field Accelerator they totally wreck immortals if controlled properly. Neither Zealots nor Stalkers nor Adepts are a problem - Charge and Blink on the other hand are, at least if you're not really careful.

Battlemech works in low unit counts, but after a certain supply you can't retreat; so you have to rely on the actual DPS of the units (which isn't low for Cyclones, but it doesn't stack up the same as other units and Cyclones themselves die relatively quick).

The real problem is that later units (Tempests, Disruptors, Carriers, etc) destroy the cyclones you are relying on for anti-armor DPs without letting them get into range or stay in range long (buffer units like Zealots can prevent it), so even though Battle-mech can trade decently against similar costs/supplies of Phoenixes and Stalkers it still falls apart.
04/05/2019 10:39 AMPosted by Quotenfrau
I personally think, classical Mech (Tank focussed) isn't a good choice vs. Toss - aggressively played Battlemech (Cyclone focussed) on the other hand...

Tanks need a higher critical mass to work in TvP. That's the main problem with them in combat apart from Disruptors (which you simply can't protect other units from).

Cyclones fall apart later when longer-ranged units can outright prevent them from working, when they don't have space due to surrounds etc, or when Blink Stalkers/Phoenixes outnumber them.

To be blunt, I think you have to make the transition into air and possibly back into Tanks for ground control when the supplies get particularly high.
04/05/2019 03:10 PMPosted by TerranicII
The real problem is that later units (Tempests, Disruptors, Carriers, etc) destroy the cyclones you are relying on for anti-armor DPs without letting them get into range or stay in range long (buffer units like Zealots can prevent it)
That's absolutely true.
Of course, you have to transition out of it at some point. But if (if!) the game reaches such a point your economy should be in a much better state due to the mobility of your units and your potential to prevent and constantly attack your opponent's expos until then.
04/05/2019 03:10 PMPosted by TerranicII
<span class="truncated">...</span>What about you just try it? Instead you theorycraft with wrong data (no, they don't get 2-shot by immortals). Moreover, you assume a straight out battle instead of using guerilla tactics with Lock On (which is how Cyclones are used).
I played TvP with and against them - with Mag-Field Accelerator they totally wreck immortals if controlled properly. Neither Zealots nor Stalkers nor Adepts are a problem - Charge and Blink on the other hand are, at least if you're not really careful.

Battlemech works in low unit counts, but after a certain supply you can't retreat; so you have to rely on the actual DPS of the units (which isn't low for Cyclones, but it doesn't stack up the same as other units and Cyclones themselves die relatively quick).

The real problem is that later units (Tempests, Disruptors, Carriers, etc) destroy the cyclones you are relying on for anti-armor DPs without letting them get into range or stay in range long (buffer units like Zealots can prevent it), so even though Battle-mech can trade decently against similar costs/supplies of Phoenixes and Stalkers it still falls apart.


Mech's problem in general is that it sucks vs Tempests. Tempests literally hard counter everything that comes out of a Factory.

By the very design of the composition, Mech is much more defensive than Bio is and it's much more expensive especially when factoring in upgrades.

Due to these characteristics, it's much more likely that you're going to be forced to make an ALL IN or else risk going to late game where Protoss has Tempests.

This is the main reason I don't play Mech anymore ever vs Protoss. Playing vs Tempests is very frustrating and almost guaranteed in every match unless I'm much better than my opponent or I successfully kill him with an ALL IN, in both of those scenarios I'm better with and more successful with Bio play anyway. Besides the modern meta has tanks and banshees mixed in with Bio units anyway so there's no need to rely on Cyclones or Helbats which I consider to be inferior units.

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