Proxy reaper is imbalanced

General Discussion
I don't know if you're trolling or you're just bad.
You seems to have no clue about what you can do/see with your probe in main. I think maps are not heavy reaper friendly since like hots blink era, reaper can't move out anywhere in your base, maybe i'm facing gods cause i play on EU ( kappa ) but deny a reaper seems pretty ok with one stalker.
As some people told you pros usually don't cancel their nexus. The key usually is to scout the facto in base or not.
I can't wait to see terran crushing all toos with proxy reaper.
Idk you seems to be the one struggling against something pretty well defended atm.
03/14/2019 02:32 AMPosted by ByunJovi
I don't know if you're trolling or you're just bad.
You seems to have no clue about what you can do/see with your probe in main. I think maps are not heavy reaper friendly since like hots blink era, reaper can't move out anywhere in your base, maybe i'm facing gods cause i play on EU ( kappa ) but deny a reaper seems pretty ok with one stalker.
As some people told you pros usually don't cancel their nexus. The key usually is to scout the facto in base or not.
I can't wait to see terran crushing all toos with proxy reaper.
Idk you seems to be the one struggling against something pretty well defended atm.


With the frequency people are doing this, I have my doubts that it's being defended well. Ofc at the pro level maybe things are different. I just harken back to P vs P. I'm going 12 pylon, 13 gateway. I usually scout on 13, too. The least eco friendly way to open.

If I chrono out a zealot and kill any probes and force probes to not mine for any time, really, then... there is no more painful loss to suffer. You shouldn't lose games after causing that amount of disruption. Unfortunately, since zealots can't jump cliffs... there is risk involved. But, however, with Terran it's a guaranteed way to start the game off ahead or... in your opinion, even.

I'm still new to playing this game in the era of tech lab cyclones. I'm sure I'm playing it wrong, but doesn't seem to be many good options. Making a zealot doesn't even seem like it helps prevent losses. Don't make one, they just block your expo. I dunno. Feels pretty one sided to me.
Proxy reaper is a joke but the Terran Circle jerk is TOO BIAS to get a HONEST ANSWER. Sad.
03/14/2019 08:42 AMPosted by InfidiumX
Proxy reaper is a joke but the Terran Circle jerk is TOO BIAS to get a HONEST ANSWER. Sad.

Hmm. I try to be honest when considering these issues. The first few posts of the thread got me thinking...

I never really thought of proxy Reaper as broken or imbalanced, but when I reflect, I see that I often go proxy Reaper because - quiet frankly - it's nearly without risk, especially when I go mech, where I don't need barracks units once my first Hellion or Tank is out. The risk is that for the first few minutes I don't have any fighting units at home, but it seldom is an issue.

I have to agree though; once the Adept/Stalker or Queen is out the Reaper is as good as dead. At best I'll get two or three worker kills but I feel like it's necessary to stay even with my opponent's economy.

It's an interesting topic to discuss, but I may be too noob (diamond) to have a valid insight.
03/14/2019 08:53 AMPosted by Jargon
Hmm. I try to be honest when considering these issues. The first few posts of the thread got me thinking...

I never really thought of proxy Reaper as broken or imbalanced, but when I reflect, I see that I often go proxy Reaper because - quiet frankly - it's nearly without risk, especially when I go mech, where I don't need barracks units once my first Hellion or Tank is out. The risk is that for the first few minutes I don't have any fighting units at home, but it seldom is an issue.

I have to agree though; once the Adept/Stalker or Queen is out the Reaper is as good as dead. At best I'll get two or three worker kills but I feel like it's necessary to stay even with my opponent's economy.

It's an interesting topic to discuss, but I may be too noob (diamond) to have a valid insight.

Major kudos to you. I always find it amusing/puzzling how few mature people there are when it comes to being objective/reasonable in SC 2.

On that note, I played some GM last night named Frobie. I had never heard of him. I tuned into his stream afterwards. In all my years of playing, he's the first seemingly mature Terran that I've played against (ofc you can't know for sure of people who don't stream).

I also watched him beat the pro gamer Winter, so he's obviously pretty good, too. So for the people who haven't already been infected with mad cow disease, check him out on twitch (goes mech in T vs P, btw).

But yeah, I feel like there's a lot of parallels to what I was doing in HotS and what proxy reaper is now. Due to the mothership core, proxying was pretty risk free as there wasn't really anything anyone could do reactively to punish proxying.

Terran could really only 1 base in response or try to block expo. Nothing else was good, except... proxy reapers (best strat against that, too)...

Random tangent. P vs P makes everything moot, though. There's no point to even play SC 2 with the state of P vs P. This Light guy epitomizes WoL P vs P and why the mothership core was introduced.

If you tech, you lose... If you try to defend... somehow the attacker has the advantage. This game...
reapers need their movement speed nerfed and bring back the upgrade to move fast. zerg needs to spend 100/100 and a worker to build the extractor to have speed, why terran can get it for free and still also be able to wall off?
03/14/2019 02:19 AMPosted by Miro
03/14/2019 12:56 AMPosted by PointsThief
I like that it's some kind of god given right that Terran gets to make their CC on the low ground, like there's no other alternative, lol.


The alternative is that it takes even longer to get your expansion up and running and producing SCVs when you're already behind because of what I previously mentioned.

Having said that, why shouldn't it be a right to build on the low ground when both Zerg and Protoss can do the same thing? What, Terran players should never be allowed to build on the low ground?

03/14/2019 12:56 AMPosted by PointsThief
Proxy reaper was already the best/strongest opener. Now... it's made even better cause... why not.


In what way, exactly? You basically auto target SCVs when they're building, so good luck getting a bunker up to retreat to and if your rax are found then good luck keeping the SCVs alive.

Reapers themselves do barely any damage and it's super easy toward them away as Protoss, especially if you've got an adept or stalker, and their grenades only do 5 damage after their "byun" nerf and are super easy to dodge.

Honestly you're !@#$%ing because you can't find anything else to ^-*!@ about.

03/14/2019 01:54 AMPosted by PointsThief
You guys are doing something wrong if there is a struggle.


Pot, kettle.

03/14/2019 01:54 AMPosted by PointsThief
Must be nice to still be able to proxy reaper and have it be buffed, of all things.


In... what way, exactly? They've done nothing but nerf it.


still in plat after all those years i see...
03/14/2019 12:32 PMPosted by Democracy
reapers need their movement speed nerfed and bring back the upgrade to move fast. zerg needs to spend 100/100 and a worker to build the extractor to have speed, why terran can get it for free and still also be able to wall off?

Well, Reapers are made obsolete once Ling speed is researched, or when the Queen pops out. I would say Reapers are useless expect for the one minute of the early game that they can get a scout in, or where they can be abused by proxy.

I don't remember the time when they had a speed upgrade, but I imagine that upgrade would never be used since Reapers are not being trained past the three minute mark.
03/14/2019 12:40 PMPosted by Jargon
Well, Reapers are made obsolete once Ling speed is researched

No, they just cannot be out on the map without hellion support. With hellion support a reaper is VERY strong. You put it at the front to absorb damage/heal while your pressure queens, use the grenade to push queens away while going for creep or drones, or even use it to unblock a ramp.

Lots and lots of games are lost on the sole merit of a well placed reaper grenade. It really goes to show just how absurdly fragile zergs early game is, but that's another topic.
l2p loser toss
03/13/2019 08:50 PMPosted by PointsThief
Tell me why/how it isn't. Maru won nearly every game he played, on the back of proxy reaper. Anytime I would play T vs P in the past... I'd open proxy reaper, cause... why not?

What is the counter/downside to doing this? On some maps, you can proxy your rax right outside a guy's base, and due to the terrain the probe will never be in a position to kill the scv making it.

I used to proxy gate Terran every game in HotS and I had one of the best P vs T's on ladder, stats/MMR wise. The proxy reaper is far more imbalanced/better than that ever was.

I don't know what you can do to change this imbalanced fact, besides making reapers worse vs workers. You'd have to be a clown to find a way to lose after opening proxy reaper, as far as I know.

Ughh, another idiot with an idiotic post. Before you cry imbalance, remeber to ask yourself the question, "why don't the pros do it every game if it's so imbalanced." After you learn the answer to that, then you'll understand why you shouldn't make idiotic posts like this.
03/14/2019 06:45 PMPosted by SwankyTiger
03/13/2019 08:50 PMPosted by PointsThief
Tell me why/how it isn't. Maru won nearly every game he played, on the back of proxy reaper. Anytime I would play T vs P in the past... I'd open proxy reaper, cause... why not?

What is the counter/downside to doing this? On some maps, you can proxy your rax right outside a guy's base, and due to the terrain the probe will never be in a position to kill the scv making it.

I used to proxy gate Terran every game in HotS and I had one of the best P vs T's on ladder, stats/MMR wise. The proxy reaper is far more imbalanced/better than that ever was.

I don't know what you can do to change this imbalanced fact, besides making reapers worse vs workers. You'd have to be a clown to find a way to lose after opening proxy reaper, as far as I know.

Ughh, another idiot with an idiotic post. Before you cry imbalance, remeber to ask yourself the question, "why don't the pros do it every game if it's so imbalanced." After you learn the answer to that, then you'll understand why you shouldn't make idiotic posts like this.


.....because if they did it every game then they'd make an all-in build that directly counters it but fails to defeat anything else????
.. you high bro?
03/14/2019 12:32 PMPosted by Democracy
reapers need their movement speed nerfed and bring back the upgrade to move fast. zerg needs to spend 100/100 and a worker to build the extractor to have speed, why terran can get it for free and still also be able to wall off?

Because Terran get it on an expensive unit that doesn't deal much damage and doesn't have the health to keep fighting for any length of time.

Reapers are useful when the opponent doesn't have many units and can't deny your scouting/harassment. They aren't useful once players start building armies.
03/14/2019 07:13 PMPosted by Democracy
03/14/2019 06:45 PMPosted by SwankyTiger
...
Ughh, another idiot with an idiotic post. Before you cry imbalance, remeber to ask yourself the question, "why don't the pros do it every game if it's so imbalanced." After you learn the answer to that, then you'll understand why you shouldn't make idiotic posts like this.


.....because if they did it every game then they'd make an all-in build that directly counters it but fails to defeat anything else????
.. you high bro?

Obviously not EVERY SINGLE GAME. Jesus...
03/14/2019 12:34 PMPosted by Democracy
still in plat after all those years i see...

Pot, kettle.
Or maybe you need to adapt and learn how to beat something no one uses for a reason? you can call something OP like how Zerg is calling BC rush OP when you see it mass used but this.. it was proxy Starport or Factory w Cyclone or Marauder w Concussive

First time I hear or see reaper rush vs protoss check your facts
Ok, what do you want to do about it besides removing reaper from the game?
03/14/2019 12:25 AMPosted by Miro
03/13/2019 11:49 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
So a Protoss builds a gateway at home, makes an adept and goes across the map and kills 1 SCV, and this is game-breaking and needs a patch. Terran can proxy a rax, make 1 reaper, get 3-4 probe kills, send the barracks home, and this is any different in WHAT way?


It's very different for a few reasons.

One, they nerfed the adept's build time by 3 seconds. Basically, not at all, and they still hit faster than your SCV can finish a standard command center timing.

Two, Unlike SCVs, probes are never really exposed because they can drop a building and go back to work. SCVs are off the mineral line for an extended period of time, and vulnerable to being killed while they are.

Thirdly, there's also the fact that command centers have to stop building SCVs in order to make an orbital command center, which puts them further behind than they already are.

Fourthly, you proxy a reaper, you get a couple kills, your protoss opponent isn't behind, they're even to you, rather than behind, due to the ability to constantly produce workers and the fact that the terran cannot build anything out of the barracks while it's floating home. Unless it gets SIGNIFICANT damage done, which it shouldn't ever, then all you're doing is evening the playing field.

"It's hard to reason someone out of a conclusion that they didn't reason themselves into." So hard in fact, I am not even going to try.
03/16/2019 09:52 AMPosted by ToServeZerg
Ok, what do you want to do about it besides removing reaper from the game?
Have them be worse against workers, like in the past: 9.1 DPS in HotS vs light units. 12.6 DPS in LotV vs light units.
03/17/2019 03:28 AMPosted by PointsThief
03/16/2019 09:52 AMPosted by ToServeZerg
Ok, what do you want to do about it besides removing reaper from the game?
Have them be worse against workers, like in the past: 9.1 DPS in HotS vs light units. 12.6 DPS in LotV vs light units.
Blizzard changed the time-scale from HotS to LotV, but the actual damage output of reaper attack did not change.

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