What do y'all think about the new BCs?

General Discussion
04/16/2019 10:18 PMPosted by Notorials
I just wanted to hear y'alls opinion on the new BCs atm, i don't want to get into

much of a balance war and i myself am absolutely fine with the BCs. I just don't

have much experience with them and would like to hear what Zergs and Terrans

alike think about them.


The general strength and new tactical options the BC brings when they're on the map I like. I like how its a unit that is a tanky charge and kill type of unit without things like stutter stepping, as well as its other secondary roles like warp harassing. And best of all: the BC is now a viable, useful, non-troll unit.

I don't like the counters to the BCs. The counters are a lot better than they used to be (*cough* archon toilet and feedback) but if I'm being honest I cant say I like to play against them.
04/17/2019 10:26 AMPosted by thrasher
04/17/2019 10:01 AMPosted by Kelthar
Most of the large design problems have historically come from attempts to make units "more interesting".


Take a unit like the Stalker now remove blink that's my point. Removing TJ is removing something that can separate a skilled player to an amateur, that makes it a boring unit. Bringing energy requirements not only gives protoss an answer to BCs but also increases tactical play on both ends. This is fundamental in an RTS.


BC energy was one of the things making BC totally not worth making.
04/17/2019 09:56 AMPosted by Gooba
04/17/2019 09:39 AMPosted by thrasher
Problem with removing tac jump is there's nothing interesting about it from that point on. I think the best bet would be to bring back energy requirements for its spells. I strongly disagree with making it immune to spells, spellcaster wars are really important just look to TvT late game and what it is now.

Yes, and maybe some countermeasures could be introduced once certain spells are cast. Still the Ghost, Templar and Some Infestor/Viper spells should be final.
BC had the energy-bar, not sure what was the rationale behind the removal (even the Feedback at most removed max-50% of the health, now just 25%).


Energy removal was done because feedback reduced the HP of the BCs massively while also removing the ability to cast Yamato which is a large part of the BC's combat effectiveness. Emp has the same effect but without the damage. So we're looking at a gateway and barracks unit making a terran end game tech unit very very bad and a liability.
04/17/2019 12:39 AMPosted by srav
Well, you cant use them as main army as they get hard countered massively by all 3 races.


Make them immune to neural parasite & abduct, and remove the "armored tag" so they don't get shreded by void rays & stalkers.

To compensate for this buff, remove TJ.

There.
I don't often agree with you on much, but I do say spell immunity is a fine trade. I think at that point even without a speed buff they can still force an engage with Protoss.
LOL, spell immunity (when no one is asking it even for the Mothership) in exchange of an evident stupid OP mechanic (TJ) that should be nerffed without compensation (it should have been done when fire while moving was given).
Those people resemble to that burglar that offers to the Police to return only part of the loot in exchange for dropping the Charges.

LOL LOL LOL.

Ace brother, where are you!
Still can't do anything in late game unless you are ahead and your opponent don't scout and you manage to catch him with his pants down.

I would much prefer unit that complement late game Terran army rather then gimmicky thingy we have now.
04/17/2019 01:11 PMPosted by Skipper
Still can't do anything in late game unless you are ahead and your opponent don't scout and you manage to catch him with his pants down.

I would much prefer unit that complement late game Terran army rather then gimmicky thingy we have now.

The only reason why Battlecruisers don't complement the late-game Terran army is that Mech isn't viable.

Battlecruisers are just fine in mech, you can integrate them easily and they fit the composition's "outrange+DPS or Tank" advantage well.
It is only Bio that is unable to use Battlecruisers and defend them properly. Bio's dependence on mobility makes Battlecruisers a weak choice; especially since they do not hard-counter any unit that is particularly threatening to Bio
and because Bio is heavily dependent on its own mobility. By contrast, mech moves about the same speed as Battlecruisers anyway and they fit well with Vikings, Tanks, Hellbats, Liberators, and Thors.
I want Tactical Jump gone, or at the very least given a spool up time like Yamato has. BC's are incredibly obnoxious in TvT because of it.
If you got rid of TJ but reduced their build time, they might actually become useful in the later game in other matchups.
04/17/2019 12:59 PMPosted by Gooba
LOL, spell immunity (when no one is asking it even for the Mothership) in exchange of an evident stupid OP mechanic (TJ) that should be nerffed without compensation (it should have been done when fire while moving was given).
Those people resemble to that burglar that offers to the Police to return only part of the loot in exchange for dropping the Charges.

LOL LOL LOL.

Ace brother, where are you!
Want to know another stupid mechanic? Recall. A spell that instantly saves a Protoss from absolutely bad positioning with the click of a button. We can also talk about prisms warping 20 zealots in your main base where they have absolutely no business being.
Impression so far, infestors, corruptors, void rays, and vikings tear them up extremely quickly, especially with a little micro since all of those have much greater attack range and/or are faster, (not to mention much cheaper and faster to make). TJ is the only thing that even barely just makes them remotely viable to bother making at all. It's not a mystery why they don't get much play in tournaments. So far I have seen extremely little to absolutely no actual gameplay evidence that current BC are OP in the slightest. Just 2 or 3 people here who seem to keep repeating it. They are barely okay in the current incarnation and terran may need a little more incentive to actually use them.
tHeY aRe SuPeR gAy
The new BC is useful but not too strong.

They are expensive and slow to build, have very strong counters but are still useful in some circumstances.

Tactical jump if what makes the unit interesting, remove that and you have a boring a-move unit.

Plus having teleport on a 400/300 unit is more resonable compared to a 50/50 nydus or a 200/0 warp-prism.
WHAT DO Y'ALL THINK ABOUT THE NEW BCS?

Really dumb. They don't really fit in with the rest of terran so they are pretty isolated in their uses, which are: A) catching an opponent off guard for a free win and B) giving the opponent a free win if he is ready for it. It's poorly designed in general. The problem is that nothing really synergizes with bio because it's about running around, killing this, killing that, retreating, kitting, etc. It's very mobile. This is the reason why ghosts have been difficult for terrans to mix in vs protoss and the BC suffers the same fate.

If Terrans want mech to be good, bio needs to be nerfed and I mean REALLY nerfed. Bio should be a cheap transitioning tool that quickly phases out of the game but is a viable way to buffer while getting your bases established and factories pumping out mech units. The problem is that Blizzard put the game into a quasi-state where mech and bio was sort of good and it didn't really work out so they nerfed mech (thor nerfs etc) and buffed bio again (marauder buff etc) because that's the way it was in HotS and it worked out much better. So, they are shifting away from strong mech and back to bio.

I think the problem is that mech units function less on a tactical level and more on a strategic one. If tanks are caught in a bad spot / with a bad spread, they get cleared out for free by vipers, for example. Bio on the other hand solves that by just stutter stepping backwards and it's not a problem. Tactical play is much simpler and easier to do because it's reactive instead of proactive. Case in point: LoL and Dota are almost entirely tactical play and have a HUGE casual base as a result. Terran is the most commonly played race for low-league players and I think the design is catered with that in mind.
Remove tactical jump. Give them afterburner.
Tactical Jump makes them a bit too efficient IMO. I think there are a lot of ways to do it, but BC needs another slight nerf.
04/18/2019 01:06 AMPosted by tEhbAtZ
If Terrans want mech to be good, bio needs to be nerfed

That's not going to help make mech viable at all. In fact, there are so many problems with mech in TvP that many Protoss units would have to be reworked or mech would need to be massively buffed in some areas to make it viable.

Unless we switch to maps with no more than 1 or 2 easy to cut off attack paths and fewer ways to safely drop/warp in; which is just not feasible.

04/18/2019 01:06 AMPosted by tEhbAtZ
Bio should be a cheap transitioning tool that quickly phases out of the game but is a viable way to buffer while getting your bases established and factories pumping out mech units.

That's never going to happen because of the Terran economy. It never happened in Brood War either remember? If mech was a viable composition in a match-up, you switched to it almost immediately off less than 4 Marines. In SC2 you can usually startup Factory production before the enemy can hit you with anything that can break a wall, so you can often pull off a transition with no bio units whatsoever. Medivacs and Marauders would completely fall out of use, whereas Marines usually wouldn't even last long enough for Stimpacks to finish--why waste the resources.

Terran has no trouble transitioning in the early game before upgrades are relevant, it is the later game where units need and have a bunch of support, where you would need to build a large number of structures at once, and where the inability for Bio and mech or Bio and Battlecruisers to work well together becomes a huge barrier that makes you extremely vulnerable during transition.
04/18/2019 07:05 AMPosted by TerranicII
It never happened in Brood War either remember?
Technically modern BW play does feature Bio opening into a Mech switch later in the game -- I believe the matchup is TvZ.

Of course, that's also the game where Bio is pretty much straight-up bad in TvP outside of cheese. Pretty different games meta-wise.
04/18/2019 10:39 AMPosted by NinjaDuckBob
Technically modern BW play does feature Bio opening into a Mech switch later in the game -- I believe the matchup is TvZ.

Well, if you can't wall off that is.

Mech openers in TvZ rely heavily on a good wall, which is hard to make against Zerglings in particular, since any gap between buildings (corners, horizontal supply depots, bottom side of barracks, etc) is basically a door into your base. That is why a decent Bio force is needed first.

There is no such problem in SC2 though. You can just open into mech most of the time, although I'm not really aware of any exceptions.
04/18/2019 10:39 AMPosted by NinjaDuckBob
Of course, that's also the game where Bio is pretty much straight-up bad in TvP outside of cheese. Pretty different games meta-wise.

Bio is weak in Brood War when the opponent has good splash damage and good armored units. Zerg kind of has neither until Terran can build a sizeable Science-Vessel/Tank count.
The irony is that they nerffed the Storm to help terran bio survive but the weaker storm performs even worst against mech.....
If the good-old Reaver is to make the appearence he can substitute fine the Disruptor/Immortal/Colossus.....
Protoss would be building 4-5 Prisms to shuttle-around those big-babies.
04/18/2019 12:28 PMPosted by Gooba
The irony is that they nerffed the Storm to help terran bio survive but the weaker storm performs even worst against mech.....
If the good-old Reaver is to make the appearence he can substitute fine the Disruptor/Immortal/Colossus.....
Protoss would be building 4-5 Prisms to shuttle-around those big-babies.

Reavers are also easier for mech to deal with than Disruptors, so ironically that would be very good for mech even though it is bad for Bio.

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