Medivac Upgrade

General Discussion
The medivac boost upgrade (Rapid Reignition System) may be the only upgrade in the game that is more of a meme than Neosteel Frames was. Why not re-work this upgrade to make it useful; e.g., allow the Medivac to heal two units at once, or perhaps simply increase healing speed?

These are just ideas off of the top of my head, but I would much rather see Blizzard pursue changes in this direction--one which takes a never-used upgrade that already exists in the game and revitalize it to make it functional with mid- and late-game utility--as opposed to nerfing Protoss upgrade research time (which will just give Terran longer timing/all-in windows and may negatively impact PvZ, too).

TL;DR

Protoss upgrade nerfs will just give longer timing windows to Terran, which is not fun for P or for T. Why not buff Medivacs by changing never-used boost upgrade to some type of healing upgrade, which would give a bit more strength to T in the later mid-game and late-game?
Is there data that shows this upgrade is never used?
03/18/2019 09:51 AMPosted by Jargon
Is there data that shows this upgrade is never used?


I doubt it; at least not publicly available data. In the thousands of pro Starcraft II games that I have watched, I have seen it researched maybe once or twice. In my own games, I've researched it accidentally more often than intentionally.

It simply doesn't offer anything useful. Even if the upgrade could be researched at the Armory, for example, instead of the tech lab, it wouldn't be worth the resources. The fact that it requires a tech lab on a Starport is just another obstacle that a Bio player will avoid unless necessary. You need to produce Medivacs two-at-a-time throughout the mid- and late-game.

*edit*

Just to add some argumentation for why there is little-to-no utility for the boost upgrade, the units that shut down drop-play (Phoenix, Muta, Corruptor) are not deterred by the shorter cool-down. The only scenario in which the boost upgrade does anything at all is that it occasionally allows for a successful retreat (getting two boosts instead of one in order to out-run Corruptors, for example). This is not worth cutting your Medivac production in half during the mid-game (tech lab instead of reactor) and it also does absolutely nothing in main-army engagements.
No one gets the medivac upgrade because medivac boost is already so good that getting the upgrade is just extra.

Another slight reason is that the cost is 100/100. If it was 75/75 it would be more enticing to slip into a build.

The upgrade is good, but you don't get tech lab starports unless it's the late game.
03/18/2019 10:42 AMPosted by MyOhMind
No one gets the medivac upgrade because medivac boost is already so good that getting the upgrade is just extra.

Another slight reason is that the cost is 100/100. If it was 75/75 it would be more enticing to slip into a build.

The upgrade is good, but you don't get tech lab starports unless it's the late game.


People get a second starport (with tech lab) in the later stages of the mid-game for Liberator range or simply for Raven production. Even when they have this Starport with a tech lab, nobody researches the boost upgrade. There are also cheesier builds that incorporate two or three Starports for BC rushes, Lib-range rushes, or speed Banshees. The Medivac boost upgrade isn't even good enough to allow for it to be utilized in such a cheese (I'm not saying that it should be, I'm just saying that tech lab Starports can and are used at all stages of the game for everything except for this boost upgrade).

You contradict your own point when you say that "Medivac boost is already so good that getting the upgrade is just extra."

That is exactly my point. Medivac boost is good. Not OP and certainly not under-powered. It's just solid. Why is there an upgrade in the game that makes a good ability marginally better?

Also, 100/100 is not cost-prohibitive. The functionality that is added to the Medivac via a shortened boost cool-down is just not worth pursuing. Making the upgrade 75/75 does not negate the fact that a boost upgrade is, in your own words, "extra"; i.e. superfluous.

An expensive healing upgrade (e.g. 150/150 and 90 seconds research time) that adds more functionality to the Medivac could be one way to enhance Terran late-game without carving out more of an all-in window in the mid-game by nerfing Protoss upgrades.
03/18/2019 11:23 AMPosted by SymphoniC
03/18/2019 10:42 AMPosted by MyOhMind
No one gets the medivac upgrade because medivac boost is already so good that getting the upgrade is just extra.

Another slight reason is that the cost is 100/100. If it was 75/75 it would be more enticing to slip into a build.

The upgrade is good, but you don't get tech lab starports unless it's the late game.


People get a second starport (with tech lab) in the later stages of the mid-game for Liberator range or simply for Raven production. Even when they have this Starport with a tech lab, nobody researches the boost upgrade. There are also cheesier builds that incorporate two or three Starports for BC rushes, Lib-range rushes, or speed Banshees. The Medivac boost upgrade isn't even good enough to allow for it to be utilized in such a cheese (I'm not saying that it should be, I'm just saying that tech lab Starports can and are used at all stages of the game for everything except for this boost upgrade).

You contradict your own point when you say that "Medivac boost is already so good that getting the upgrade is just extra."

That is exactly my point. Medivac boost is good. Not OP and certainly not under-powered. It's just solid. Why is there an upgrade in the game that makes a good ability marginally better?

Also, 100/100 is not cost-prohibitive. The functionality that is added to the Medivac via a shortened boost cool-down is just not worth pursuing. Making the upgrade 75/75 does not negate the fact that a boost upgrade is, in your own words, "extra"; i.e. superfluous.

An expensive healing upgrade (e.g. 150/150 and 90 seconds research time) that adds more functionality to the Medivac could be one way to enhance Terran late-game without carving out more of an all-in window in the mid-game by nerfing Protoss upgrades.

A heal upgrade was tried, but no one got it either.
In the live game? When? There used to be a Medivac starting energy upgrade in HotS.

*edit* I just looked it up myself. From December 5th, 2012 - January 9th, 2013, Caduceus Reactor did the following:

Health restored per second from 9 to 15.
Energy cost reduced from 3 health per 1 energy to 5 health per 1 energy.
Cost increased from 100/100 and 80 seconds to 150/150 and 110 seconds.

Are you actually serious when you say "A heal upgrade was tried, but no one got it either"? You are actually comparing one month of Heart of the Swarm beta testing to almost 3.5 years of live games played in Legacy of the Void.

Read that again: in 3.5 years of LotV, Rapid Reignition System has only changed one time, and that was a menial shift from ability duration to cooldown duration in November of 2018. Nobody has ever used the ability in any meaningful way during this entire time, but sure, I guess a healing upgrade was already tried, too (???).
03/18/2019 11:32 AMPosted by SymphoniC
In the live game? When? There used to be a Medivac starting energy upgrade in HotS.

In HOTS they turned the Caduceus Reactor(medivac energy upgrade) into a heal upgrade.

Read the Patch Changes: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Medivac_(Heart_of_the_Swarm)

HOTS is also where the medivac boost was added to the Medivac.
03/18/2019 11:40 AMPosted by MyOhMind
03/18/2019 11:32 AMPosted by SymphoniC
In the live game? When? There used to be a Medivac starting energy upgrade in HotS.

In HOTS they turned the Caduceus Reactor(medivac energy upgrade) into a heal upgrade.

Read the Patch Changes: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Medivac_(Heart_of_the_Swarm)

HOTS is also where the medivac boost was added to the Medivac.


I just responded in my edited post above. You must be joking. You are actually comparing one month of beta testing in Heart of the Swarm to 3.5 years of live gameplay in Legacy of the Void. The healing upgrade was never even in the live version of the game.
03/18/2019 11:32 AMPosted by SymphoniC
In the live game? When? There used to be a Medivac starting energy upgrade in HotS.

*edit* I just looked it up myself. From December 5th, 2012 - January 9th, 2013, Caduceus Reactor did the following:

Health restored per second from 9 to 15.
Energy cost reduced from 3 health per 1 energy to 5 health per 1 energy.
Cost increased from 100/100 and 80 seconds to 150/150 and 110 seconds.

Are you actually serious when you say "A heal upgrade was tried, but no one got it either"? You are actually comparing one month of Heart of the Swarm beta testing to almost 3.5 years of live games played in Legacy of the Void.

Read that again: in 3.5 years of LotV, Rapid Reignition System has only changed one time, and that was a menial shift from ability duration to cooldown duration in November of 2018. Nobody has ever used the ability in any meaningful way during this entire time, but sure, I guess a healing upgrade was already tried, too (???).

Upgrades for medivacs when it comes to speed or healing haven't shown to be popular or needed.

Now of the medivac had a fusion core upgrade that allowed them to lift sieged tanks that might be something people would get.
03/18/2019 11:43 AMPosted by SymphoniC
03/18/2019 11:40 AMPosted by MyOhMind
...
In HOTS they turned the Caduceus Reactor(medivac energy upgrade) into a heal upgrade.

Read the Patch Changes: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Medivac_(Heart_of_the_Swarm)

HOTS is also where the medivac boost was added to the Medivac.


I just responded in my edited post above. You must be joking. You are actually comparing one month of beta testing in Heart of the Swarm to 3.5 years of live gameplay in Legacy of the Void. The healing upgrade was never even in the live version of the game.

The heal upgrade still wouldn't be got by people since medivacs already heal at a good rate as is.
03/18/2019 11:44 AMPosted by MyOhMind
03/18/2019 11:32 AMPosted by SymphoniC
In the live game? When? There used to be a Medivac starting energy upgrade in HotS.

*edit* I just looked it up myself. From December 5th, 2012 - January 9th, 2013, Caduceus Reactor did the following:

Health restored per second from 9 to 15.
Energy cost reduced from 3 health per 1 energy to 5 health per 1 energy.
Cost increased from 100/100 and 80 seconds to 150/150 and 110 seconds.

Are you actually serious when you say "A heal upgrade was tried, but no one got it either"? You are actually comparing one month of Heart of the Swarm beta testing to almost 3.5 years of live games played in Legacy of the Void.

Read that again: in 3.5 years of LotV, Rapid Reignition System has only changed one time, and that was a menial shift from ability duration to cooldown duration in November of 2018. Nobody has ever used the ability in any meaningful way during this entire time, but sure, I guess a healing upgrade was already tried, too (???).

Upgrades for medivacs when it comes to speed or healing haven't shown to be popular or needed.

Now of the medivac had a fusion core upgrade that allowed them to lift sieged tanks that might be something people would get.


Don't get me wrong, you can disagree with my original point and state that a healing upgrade for the Medivac is unnecessary. To say that it has "already been tried and nobody got it," though, is disingenuous to say the least. The only time it was ever tried was in a previous iteration of the game (HotS), and even then, it was for a very, very short time (five weeks) in the beta.

You can think it's a bad idea, for sure, but you can't possibly draw a parallel to the present version of the game and say that it has been tried and is not popular or needed.

An upgrade to allow Medivacs to lift sieged Tanks would have a heck of a lot more testing behind it, as this was an ability that was in the live game for a long time. Personally, I wasn't a fan of Tankivacs at all. I agree that such an upgrade would be used, but I think we've seen enough to know that it is a very frustrating mechanic to play against.
03/18/2019 11:50 AMPosted by SymphoniC

An upgrade to allow Medivacs to lift sieged Tanks would have a heck of a lot more testing behind it, as this was an ability that was in the live game for a long time. Personally, I wasn't a fan of Tankivacs at all. I agree that such an upgrade would be used, but I think we've seen enough to know that it is a very frustrating mechanic to play against.

Tankivacs were frustrating because they were able to be done right out of the gate with no upgrade or tech. This made them incredibly abusive.

If it was delayed to the fusion core, it would make them a late game choice and provide an addition to the medivac worth upgrading and be unique.

Energy and heal upgrades to the medivac end up being redundant.
03/18/2019 11:48 AMPosted by MyOhMind
<span class="truncated">...</span>

I just responded in my edited post above. You must be joking. You are actually comparing one month of beta testing in Heart of the Swarm to 3.5 years of live gameplay in Legacy of the Void. The healing upgrade was never even in the live version of the game.

The heal upgrade still wouldn't be got by people since medivacs already heal at a good rate as is.


Perhaps not, and that's a valid concern. I suppose the devil's in the details, though. Maintaining the current healing rate but allowing for a second unit to be simultaneously healed could be something to test.

*edit*

To respond to your post about Tankivacs being moved to late-game; yes, that would be less frustrating than opening the game with them. At the same time, regardless of what stage of the game it is, it isn't fun to be doom-dropped with Tanks already in siege mode. In fact, it's quite ridiculous.

We'll just have to agree to disagree that a healing upgrade would be "redundant," though I agree that any speed upgrades or energy upgrades would be.
i like my medevac boosted like zergs mmr
<span class="truncated">...</span>
The heal upgrade still wouldn't be got by people since medivacs already heal at a good rate as is.


Perhaps not, and that's a valid concern. I suppose the devil's in the details, though. Maintaining the current healing rate but allowing for a second unit to be simultaneously healed could be something to test.

*edit*

To respond to your post about Tankivacs being moved to late-game; yes, that would be less frustrating than opening the game with them. At the same time, regardless of what stage of the game it is, it isn't fun to be doom-dropped with Tanks already in siege mode. In fact, it's quite ridiculous.

We'll just have to agree to disagree that a healing upgrade would be "redundant," though I agree that any speed upgrades or energy upgrades would be.

Here is what I'm trying to say:

What will a heal upgrade(which has already been tried) for the medivac bring to the table for the medivac?.

It's the same thing with the energy upgrade and now with the booster upgrade.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Perhaps not, and that's a valid concern. I suppose the devil's in the details, though. Maintaining the current healing rate but allowing for a second unit to be simultaneously healed could be something to test.

*edit*

To respond to your post about Tankivacs being moved to late-game; yes, that would be less frustrating than opening the game with them. At the same time, regardless of what stage of the game it is, it isn't fun to be doom-dropped with Tanks already in siege mode. In fact, it's quite ridiculous.

We'll just have to agree to disagree that a healing upgrade would be "redundant," though I agree that any speed upgrades or energy upgrades would be.

Here is what I'm trying to say.

What will a heal upgrade(which has already been tried) for medivac bring to the table for the medivac?.

It's the same thing with the energy upgrade and now with the booster upgrade.


As a basic example, if there is an upgrade that allows for two units to be healed by each Medivac, then by definition, the Terran bio army is more robust, right? It's better in fights because 2x (per Medivac) the amount of units are being healed. At the same time, making the upgrade relatively expensive--let's say 150/150 and with a lengthy research time of 90 seconds or so--prevents it from being effectively used in early-game cheeses or all-ins due to the investment required (and the fact that a tech lab is needed, which, by necessity, reduces Medivac production to 50% while the upgrade is researched).

Effectively, it would make the Bio army more robust in the long-term, albeit indirectly (buffing a support unit rather than buffing Bio directly). Virtually everybody agrees that Terran late-game is very weak (Ghost/Lib is a weird semi-exception) and this would be a change that makes the Terran army less fragile in main engagements.

*edit*

Also, as a final response, stop saying that a healing upgrade "has already been tried." 1) It was never tried in Legacy of the Void. 2) It was never tried in Heart of the Swarm; it was tried (briefly) in beta. It has never been present in any professional tournament. It has never even been present on ladder. It has not been tried in any form in the game that we play today (LotV). It's very difficult to discuss something when you are basing your argument off of something that is, for all intents and purposes, factually incorrect.
03/18/2019 12:09 PMPosted by SymphoniC
...
Here is what I'm trying to say.

What will a heal upgrade(which has already been tried) for medivac bring to the table for the medivac?.

It's the same thing with the energy upgrade and now with the booster upgrade.


As a basic example, if there is an upgrade that allows for two units to be healed by each Medivac, then by definition, the Terran bio army is more robust, right? It's better in fights because 2x (per Medivac) the amount of units are being healed. At the same time, making the upgrade relatively expensive--let's say 150/150 and with a lengthy research time of 90 seconds or so--prevents it from being effectively used in early-game cheeses or all-ins due to the investment required (and the fact that a tech lab is needed, which, by necessity, reduces Medivac production to 50% while the upgrade is researched).

Effectively, it would make the Bio army more robust in the long-term, albeit indirectly (buffing a support unit rather than buffing Bio directly). Virtually everybody agrees that Terran late-game is very weak (Ghost/Lib is a weird semi-exception) and this would be a change that makes the Terran army less fragile in main engagements.

*edit*

Also, as a final response, stop saying that a healing upgrade "has already been tried." 1) It was never tried in Legacy of the Void. 2) It was never tried in Heart of the Swarm; it was tried (briefly) in beta. It has never been present in any professional tournament. It has never even been present on ladder. It has not been tried in any form in the game that we play today (LotV). It's very difficult to discuss something when you are basing your argument off of something that is, for all intents and purposes, factually incorrect.

If you give the medivac a dual heal upgrade you have to decide if it should drain energy at double the rate or keep the energy drain rate the same(which might be broken in large numbers of medivacs).

In HOTS they have people a choice between better heal and boost. Players picked boost.
Pretty sure they tried a healing upgrade but it ended up being to strong or something like that.

Tankivacs where hated because it showed a flaw that a unit designed to become immobile in order to have overwhelming firepower was so weak at its role, that it was forced to be ferried constantly by medivacs. The doom drops and constant Tankivacs harrass just added an extra layer of annoyance that affected every race.

Might as well add restoration from the bw medic as a situation upgrade that you can use to remove Interference Matrix and other status effecting spells and attacks.
03/18/2019 12:37 PMPosted by ZXOmegaXZ
Pretty sure they tried a healing upgrade but it ended up being to strong or something like that.
Yes, blueheal was too strong. There isn't really much room to improve Medivac heal to actually have an impact above what it currently does without making it too strong.

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