Cannon rush pro

General Discussion
Thread to congratulate me on executing the hardest, yet most balanced strat in the game. I'll walk you through it (all P vs P games).

First time around, I botched the cannon rush, cause no idea what I was doing. Still won.

Second time around, I used my amazing mind to figure out where to place a pylon. This resulted in my opponent leaving a couple seconds after his first zealot was out. Totally deserved win. Might be my proudest W. Ofc... my opponent was enthralled by what he saw and congratulated me on how well I played the game (not).

Third time around, I was getting chased by so many probes that I used my amazing mind, again, to say "I can just transition to a 'standard game' and guy would have no chance of winning, due to eco already lost." Guess what happened...

The wins come so easy and fast, it's hard to keep track of. Sure I played more than mentioned. Every game, equally stupid.

Protoss is a s race. It's absolutely god awful. Yet, the ONE THING IN THE WORLD THAT IS COMPLETELY F'ING BROKEN NEVER GETS NERFED? Quit being imbeciles and nerf it already. God.

Then again... I think the assimilator might have 20 HP too much. Totally changing outcomes of games and making games totally unplayable. Where the f do they find these guys?
obviously the answer is make gateway the requirement for cannons.
Yeah nice post troll but let me tell you one thing: There's nothing pro about a cannon rush!
04/06/2019 06:22 AMPosted by ToServeZerg
obviously the answer is make gateway the requirement for cannons.

It should either be forge+gateway or forge+cybercore. If you pick the latter, you can reduce cannon's cost since it'll only be used for defense.
when pro players are able to win few games in a row by building 3 proxy barracks and few bunkers, cannon rush is defenetely the issue, because pull the workers is so hard, lets just wait until cannons finish
I don’t find cannon rush as bad in LoTV compared to WoL.

With the increase in starting workers, my first SCV goes to my choke to make a wall and theirs no way for a probe to sneak in before.

In WoL I’d have to send an SCV around my base to make sure one didn’t slip in between start and getting to my depot SCV.

As long as I don’t have to every play someone like Florencio( especially as a Zerg). Fighting proxy nexus with batteries and cannons followed by proxy oracles and voidrays looks rather rage inducing.
Does this rant only apply to PvP? Because I when I see my opponent Cannon rushing I just laugh because they're gonna lose; very easy to defend against when the players have similar MMR.

It's the proxy Immortal/Warp Prism that's killer, at least vs me.
04/06/2019 02:24 PMPosted by MetaMegaRH
I don’t find cannon rush as bad in LoTV compared to WoL.
That's thanks to map makers changing maps. In WoL, on a few maps, all Toss had to do was make 2 pylons behind your mineral lines and it was GG.

They also added the unbuildable terrain below ramps, so they couldn't pylon wall off versus Zerg (or any race).

04/06/2019 03:01 PMPosted by Jargon
Does this rant only apply to PvP?
It's in this order: P vs P; P vs Z. It's hard to say it's a problem against Terran since none of these lil cheesers have found a way to have success versus Terran (they rarely ever achieve 50%).

Cannon rushing used to mostly be a P vs P problem, even though pros rarely lost when doing it vs Zerg, if you ask me. But, since the introduction of the shield battery, it's probably the best strategy to use against Zerg, too. Their ladder win rates are approaching their P vs P win rates, which is crazy.

In HotS, these cheeers were 50-55% against Zerg. Now, they're more 65'ish %. All thanks to the shield battery cheeses + disruptors + warp prism + immortals and w/e else.

It's honestly frustrating to try playing a "proper game of SC 2," while knowing this stupid bs is the strongest way to play the race.

Could you imagine if every map had locations in the main where Terran could make a rax and you could never target the SCV? P vs T. A guy just makes a rax right next to your nexus and then just kills all of your probes with 1 reaper. That's P vs P.

"Can't wait to go tell my friends to play this amazing game! It's so fair and fun! The strategies are mind blowing!" Cannon rushing causes more people to give up gaming than broken PCs.

We need better humans balancing the game. No matter how stupid something might be, if it goes on for long enough, there becomes an aura of "well... now that's it's gone on for so long, it would be too weird to change/fix it now. It would just be wrong to fix something that's persisted for so long. It would be like changing the name of Starcraft!"

Seeing all of this ridiculous stuff like feedback and HP on assimilators being nerfed isn't funny/cute when having to face egregiously broken things for years, that don't even get mentioned.

If their head is that far up their rear, it's time to start taking polls on what is actually broken with Toss, since they obviously have no clue.
04/06/2019 02:24 PMPosted by MetaMegaRH
I don’t find cannon rush as bad in LoTV compared to WoL.

With the increase in starting workers, my first SCV goes to my choke to make a wall and theirs no way for a probe to sneak in before.

In WoL I’d have to send an SCV around my base to make sure one didn’t slip in between start and getting to my depot SCV.

As long as I don’t have to every play someone like Florencio( especially as a Zerg). Fighting proxy nexus with batteries and cannons followed by proxy oracles and voidrays looks rather rage inducing.

The fact that you'll have more minerals off of the same production, due to the worker change, means that the design of the game benefits cannon rushes. There are far more cannon rushes in master league TvPs than there ever was in HotS.

04/06/2019 05:57 PMPosted by PointsThief
It's hard to say it's a problem against Terran since none of these lil cheesers have found a way to have success versus Terran (they rarely ever achieve 50%).

I can hold cannon rushes without a barracks, honestly.
My understanding of Toss is gold, plat at best.

Playing ONLY cannon rush I was able to rank up to Dia3, having my long-time main Zerg at Dia2. I thought to reach the same level, but became too bored of being the bad guy.

Yeah, totally not broken.
04/07/2019 01:47 AMPosted by SinsWhisper
I can hold cannon rushes without a barracks, honestly.
I don't know that much about cannon rushes against Terran, outside of knowing the cheesers win rates vs them.

My limited knowledge of cannon rushing vs Terran is that they're not usually trying to win directly through a cannon rush; ie., not just kill your command center/mineral line. They're just trying to set up shop at your natural and then kill you with tempests and the usual bag of bs + 100000 shield batteries.

In my experience, in P vs P, when this kind of contain is going up, it basically relies on you never attacking their base. If you can force them to recall, then they're pretty boned.

So far, I feel like I've been winning in spite of cannon rushing... No one is worse at this than I am. I'm so macro oriented and adverse to "all eggs in one basket" in SC 2, that I usually end up leaving my cannons exposed. Like, I'm not instantly trying to surround a cannon with a gateway and 5 pylons.

I'm allergic to doing all-ins. So, given this... like all of my cannon rushes have been pretty big failures at the GM level. That said... I've only lost 1 P vs P game. And that was to a 6k player. A game I still managed to get ahead in, late game...

I usually end up killing no probes, while losing both of mine... and I just transition, yet still win... The cannon rush is so ridiculous that it seems like the only real con of failing a cannon rush as hard as possible is... your cyber is a little later than the other guy's.

I feel like no one really understands what the full potential of cannon rushing is, myself included. You have to remember, printf couldn't even get/maintain GM when not cannon rushing. Heck... he couldn't even stop other people's cannon rushes. Yet, he got over 6200 MMR with cannon rushing...

What I'm getting at is... we've really only seen the strength of cannon rushing in the hands of people who HAVE TO GO ALL-IN, balls to the wall with it. There is no transition game.

If players who could already win P vs P at a high rate, without cannon rushing, decided to mix cannon rushing in... then it should be near impossible to find the right balance between over defending or under defending.

It makes a big difference when you know a guy has to win via an all-in and you can go all out in defending. When you're playing against a guy like weedamins, you know you're really just playing against a platinum player who is in masters due to cannons, so if you make it to the mid game behind... you're still ahead....
04/07/2019 02:26 AMPosted by PointsThief
then it should be near impossible to find the right balance between over defending or under defending.
from what I can remember this is actually something the Koreans did well.
04/07/2019 02:26 AMPosted by PointsThief
I don't know that much about cannon rushes against Terran, outside of knowing the cheesers win rates vs them.

My limited knowledge of cannon rushing vs Terran is that they're not usually trying to win directly through a cannon rush; ie., not just kill your command center/mineral line. They're just trying to set up shop at your natural and then kill you with tempests and the usual bag of bs + 100000 shield batteries.

You have to vary the transition off of the cannon rush and exploit some Terran expectation of a follow up or force a very middle of the road play from Terran so you can't only follow up with Tempests. The problem with thinking about the cannon rush as a means to an all in like a zealot flood against no wall or proxy tempests with cannons and shield batteries is that the follow up will just hit a lot later than if you didn't cannon rush. Terran will inevitably hold once they make a single siege tank, which is how I've held cannon rushes with my barracks in a position that makes it unusable for a minute or two, so the aim of the cannon rush is to both do damage and set the game up in a way that helps your transition.
04/07/2019 02:34 AMPosted by Shonix
from what I can remember this is actually something the Koreans did well.
The thing is, if you simply fake a cannon rush, then the other guy is so screwed. You either have to scout asap or know of a way of defending vs a cannon rush without pulling probes... This strat is so headache and rage inducing.
04/07/2019 03:16 AMPosted by PointsThief
04/07/2019 02:34 AMPosted by Shonix
from what I can remember this is actually something the Koreans did well.
The thing is, if you simply fake a cannon rush, then the other guy is so screwed. You either have to scout asap or know of a way of defending vs a cannon rush without pulling probes... This strat is so headache and rage inducing.
what do you mean asap? standart scout after pylon reach the opponent base before the forge is finished (or few seconds later on really long maps), playing without scout is bad idea in any matchup i think
04/07/2019 04:19 AMPosted by Farbros
what do you mean asap? standart scout after pylon reach the opponent base before the forge is finished (or few seconds later on really long maps), playing without scout is bad idea in any matchup i think
That's not a standard scout...

That's part of why fake cannon rushing is so strong. NO ONE scouts at that time, except for people doing a cannon rush. The one P vs P I didn't cannon rush today, I simply faked a cannon rush. Guy pulled probes and by the time I canceled my pylon, the game was already over, for all intents and purposes.

If you scout after pylon, then you're just at a disadvantage against people who scout at a standard time. Unless you just fake cannon rush every game. But at GM, where you play the same people, people would catch on. Thus... you'd have to actually start cannon rushing, too.
04/07/2019 04:19 AMPosted by Farbros
what do you mean asap? standart scout after pylon reach the opponent base before the forge is finished (or few seconds later on really long maps), playing without scout is bad idea in any matchup i think
I have a feeling you are already screwed, if you notice cannon rush at the moment forge is ready.

As Zerg I've come to send one of my initial 14 drones to scout for forge, only to counter subj.

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