Cannon rush pro

General Discussion
04/07/2019 04:19 AMPosted by Farbros
what do you mean asap? standart scout after pylon reach the opponent base before the forge is finished (or few seconds later on really long maps), playing without scout is bad idea in any matchup i think

The standard scout is after gateway so you have no idea if the cannon rush is real or not.
04/07/2019 04:30 AMPosted by PointsThief
04/07/2019 04:19 AMPosted by Farbros
what do you mean asap? standart scout after pylon reach the opponent base before the forge is finished (or few seconds later on really long maps), playing without scout is bad idea in any matchup i think
That's not a standard scout...

That's part of why fake cannon rushing is so strong. NO ONE scouts at that time, except for people doing a cannon rush. The one P vs P I didn't cannon rush today, I simply faked a cannon rush. Guy pulled probes and by the time I canceled my pylon, the game was already over, for all intents and purposes.

If you scout after pylon, then you're just at a disadvantage against people who scout at a standard time. Unless you just fake cannon rush every game. But at GM, where you play the same people, people would catch on. Thus... you'd have to actually start cannon rushing, too.
why its not standart? i can understand scout after gateway in pvz, because the wall is too far from your nexus and because zerg can only do a proxy hatch, which is easy scoutable, but scout after gateway in pvp or pvt may end so that you will not have enough time to find and prepare for proxy/cannon rush, so i believe that its better to scout after the pylon + the wall is not so far
04/07/2019 06:01 AMPosted by Farbros
why its not standart? i can understand scout after gateway in pvz, because the wall is too far from your nexus and because zerg can only do a proxy hatch, which is easy scoutable, but scout after gateway in pvp or pvt may end so that you will not have enough time to find and prepare for proxy/cannon rush, so i believe that its better to scout after the pylon + the wall is not so far

I'm actually surprised to hear it's standard to scout after gateway in P vs P. I figured the majority probably scouted after cyber.

Scouting after gateway, on a lot of maps, is basically like scouting after pylon, anyways. If you scout after gateway and you pass a probe along the way, near your base, then you know they pylon scouted (or sent a probe before then).

Given that fake cannon rushes are extremely rare and no one simply scouts after pylon, then you've basically already scouted a cannon rush if you see a probe. So you can gather the same information, while not giving up an eco advantage to your opponent by scouting earlier than they are. That's my reasoning, at least.

I sometimes prefer scouting after cyber. My gateway is already at my natural, so it gives me a heads up on when I'm getting cannon rushed, so I just make my cyber, then scout the proxy 4 gate location and then go to guy's base. Probe still gets in their base in time to see whether a pylon is missing or w/e else.

It kinda just depends on my mood or how much I've been cheesed recently. If you pylon scout, you should definitely fake a cannon rush, though.

In P vs T, I definitely gateway scout, though. If you scout any earlier than that, you haven't even given them time to start a proxy yet. So, you basically have no chance of punishing them taking any risks. They're either going to see your probe and just not proxy, or... your timing is going to be off and they're going to get away with a proxy that a gateway scout would have stopped.

Terran is bs, though, so who knows when it comes to stopping those impossible to target scvs. As much bs as cannon rushes are when you instantly scout a proxy, yet can't even deny it...
Cannon rush is even more ridiculous in team games.
https://drop.sc/replay/10273720
In this game my team defended the rush but by the time it took to do so the cannon rushers were 2 base nearly full saturation while we were still on 1 base. Cannon rush isn't just a retarded way to play the game, it's imbalanced particularly in team games.
04/07/2019 02:54 PMPosted by HotlineBling
Cannon rush is even more ridiculous in team games.
https://drop.sc/replay/10273720
In this game my team defended the rush but by the time it took to do so the cannon rushers were 2 base nearly full saturation while we were still on 1 base. Cannon rush isn't just a retarded way to play the game, it's imbalanced particularly in team games.
"Myallyisga.." Funny names and banter in that game.

I kid you not. I lost a friend over a cannon rush in a 2 vs 2. I think it was when low ground pylons powered high ground buildings. Some guy on the other team made a low ground cannon outside my base and was now making a cannon on the high ground.

You know how the maps are in team games. It's not like you can just see a guy making a pylon and then go contest it. It would have taken me like over a minute just to reach that location. Longer than the build time of the buildings he was making.

And once someone has a low ground cannon, they can do w/e they want. Especially when the high ground cannon is basically right next to your nexus.

Anyways, I just instantly left the game. I tell my friend there was nothing we could do, but my friend was incredulous. I imagine since I was high GM then that no one could compute that a noob could beat us/me that easily. Like there had to be SOMETHING we could have done.

I don't care if the d bag was in Bronze league. If I were smart enough to figure out how to stop that over powered bs, I'd have won GSL by now.

My friend basically thought I was a d bag for leaving a game we couldn't win... Like, it's not a joke. Cannon rushing truly kills SC 2.

I noticed something happened once I started cannon rushing. Even Ray Charles could notice this one. Guess what happened? Ain't nobody saying "GG" anymore. Guess why? Cause ain't no game involving cannons a good game. It's a s game.
04/07/2019 05:20 AMPosted by Killjoy
04/07/2019 04:19 AMPosted by Farbros
what do you mean asap? standart scout after pylon reach the opponent base before the forge is finished (or few seconds later on really long maps), playing without scout is bad idea in any matchup i think

The standard scout is after gateway so you have no idea if the cannon rush is real or not.

Not in PvP it isn't, unless you are playing in maybe a tournament where you know that they almost certainly won't cannon rush, the cheapest and easiest way to prepare is to pylon scout, and worst case scenario (standard gate opener) you get a shot at a gas steal and they lose mining time blocking that.
You guys are crazy if you think pylon scouting is standard. It happens to me in like 2% of my games, if that. There hasn't been any reason to pylon scout at GM, so far.

As mentioned, if you gateway scout and you see a probe soon after, then you already know what he is doing. Pylon scouting would help you lose more games than it would help you win.

At lower leagues, it might make more sense, since it's far more common, thus you can't automatically deduce what a guy is doing since you saw a probe at a pylon scout timing. Also, if the other guy is pylon scouting then it cancels out and no one has gained an adv.

A sad update: I still have only lost 1 game with cannon rushing in P vs P, so far... And, even my loss was more out of curiosity than anything: I saw guy was going carriers and I was curious as to what it would look like if I let him max out (serious).

In my limited experience, so far, I think the biggest problem/imbalance is high ground pylons powering low ground buildings. I can just make a pylon on the high ground, then make a cannon on the low ground, and the guy ends up losing so much mining time, that it's already hard to end up behind. You don't have to commit jack s, where as they have to commit a lot to trying to defend it.

I'm just making a cannon on the high ground and low ground and not even really trying to protect them. At most, I might get one cannon up and kill 3 probes if I get lucky.

It appears like the only way to fail a cannon rush is to be a noob that can't win unless he can basically kill a guy's nexus with cannons.

If this strategy was even half as strong against Terran as it is vs Toss, it would have been nerfed into oblivion years ago. They couldn't give a f less about Toss.
Cannon rushing in PvP is one of the most rediculous things in the game, cheeses that put you ahead even after you fail them should not be in the game. It's absurd.
04/08/2019 09:40 AMPosted by TheBentOne
Cannon rushing in PvP is one of the most rediculous things in the game, cheeses that put you ahead even after you fail them should not be in the game. It's absurd.
Yeah, it's pretty "funny." I mean, I'm the worst at cheesing in the game. Like, I would lose both of my probes without killing any of theirs and forget to cancel pylons and whatever else, yet I would still win.

It's really mind boggling. Think about it. These guys can win 70% of their games versus the best Toss players on ladder, without being able to win any games unless they're MASSIVELY AHEAD, due to being sooooooo much MMR behind their opponent, if not for cannons.

Replay of a game I played today: https://drop.sc/replay/10279994

I attempted to make 2 cannons. I canceled one. I didn't protect either of them. I tried to make a pylon to protect one of them, but I misplaced it, so had to cancel it. I know from playing against cannon rushers, that I'm not even sending my probe at the right time, thus my cannons are late.

All that said, I still killed 3 probes and managed to beat a 5700 MMR Toss player. To me, this kind of game is a part of the 30% that the Printf's of the world are losing. If they would actually learn how to get a high MMR while playing even games (without cannons), then they could probably have a 90% winrate in P vs P, if not higher...

As is, it's the most successful ladder strat, while only noobs are doing it (mainly).
04/06/2019 04:32 AMPosted by PointsThief
Then again... I think the assimilator might have 20 HP too much.

20*45HP. 900HP, dummy, while the other races only 500. Every Protoss on earth was gas stealing.

04/07/2019 02:26 AMPosted by PointsThief
I'm allergic to doing all-ins. So, given this... like all of my cannon rushes have been pretty big failures at the GM level. That said... I've only lost 1 P vs P game. And that was to a 6k player. A game I still managed to get ahead in, late game...

I usually end up killing no probes, while losing both of mine... and I just transition, yet still win... The cannon rush is so ridiculous that it seems like the only real con of failing a cannon rush as hard as possible is... your cyber is a little later than the other guy's.

I wonder how they respond to cannonrush. Or how would you in PvsP?

In Diamond I can delay the cannonrush for long ago for me to chrono out an Immortal (then again 2 shield batteries seem safer since LotV). 2 of them and Warp prism in the opponent is instantly dead. Especially since they go Nexus after the failed rush... xD

04/06/2019 05:57 PMPosted by PointsThief
Could you imagine if every map had locations in the main where Terran could make a rax and you could never target the SCV?

They had the unreachable Liberator in the beta. They still can find spots to shoot the mineralline on some maps where only one single ground unit can reach them, which they 2-hit.

You might be right, but you also have horse blinders. Every race has these annoying and borderline broken mechanics, it just so happens that you dislike some of them much more than others.

04/06/2019 05:57 PMPosted by PointsThief
If their head is that far up their rear, it's time to start taking polls on what is actually broken with Toss, since they obviously have no clue.

Oh that would be great. I imagine them saying anyway "we hear the poll and we don't agree" like in the beta, but well... DK is gone, so maybe not. xD Then again with Activision firing Blizzard staff left and right, who knows if SC2 won't go into maintenance mode soon.

04/08/2019 09:22 AMPosted by PointsThief
You guys are crazy if you think pylon scouting is standard. It happens to me in like 2% of my games, if that. There hasn't been any reason to pylon scout at GM, so far.

I don't get why at GM level it's such a horrific crime to scout a little earlier. There was a time Hero was considered the best Protoss, he got his tiny eco advantage by NEVER scouting. Until sOs exploited that to the fullest (and rightfully so, it was so satisfying to see Hero crumble :D ).

In Broodwar scouting earlier didn't leave you with an eco disadvantage you could never catch up.... So sad what SC2 has become.

04/08/2019 09:22 AMPosted by PointsThief
If this strategy was even half as strong against Terran as it is vs Toss, it would have been nerfed into oblivion years ago. They couldn't give a f less about Toss.

Then again, DK has left the team. So maybe not anymore. :-P

You know that he made Terran especially powerful each time because he was especially bad with it, right?
I wonder how they respond to cannonrush. Or how would you in PvsP?

In Diamond I can delay the cannonrush for long ago for me to chrono out an Immortal (then again 2 shield batteries seem safer since LotV). 2 of them and Warp prism in the opponent is instantly dead. Especially since they go Nexus after the failed rush... xD
I just faked a cannon rush against a 6.4k MMR guy. He responded with a forge. That's also what I do, but I feel like it only helps you against cannon rushes you already stopped. It's more of like an insurance measure than a counter.

20*45HP. 900HP, dummy, while the other races only 500. Every Protoss on earth was gas stealing.
I needed a laugh. Nobody was gas stealing against anybody. You gotta send a freaking probe before you even make a pylon to gas steal. Then, when a probe is in your base that early... you can still deny them from taking the gas.

One of the least viable ways of opening in the game, a million HP on the gas or not. It's so ironical/weird that I happened to take gas from my opponent in my last P vs P, for the first time ever.

Gas steal really only helps cannon rushers who are trying to contain you, to my knowledge. I used to gas steal sometimes in the proxy T vs P era, to help stop all the bs they could do. But, even then... they can still deny you. Really bad/risky way to open.

Snute started the assimilators have too much HP whine. I don't know why people never give that guy grief. Dead serious. His complaint was he didn't like how much HP assimilators had because he felt like it was affecting his engagements/fights. The guy who won so many hundreds of thousands off abusing free units... his biggest gripe in the game was assimilators not dying fast enough or drawing too many shots.

The boldest, most ridiculous thing ever said in SC 2. Yet, he got his way. I'm sure he's also going to get another retirement party for his 50th retirement. Guy should wear a clown nose.
04/09/2019 06:25 AMPosted by PointsThief
I just faked a cannon rush against a 6.4k MMR guy. He responded with a forge. That's also what I do, but I feel like it only helps you against cannon rushes you already stopped. It's more of like an insurance measure than a counter.

WTF! xD You couldn't describe what you do in a more stupid way, even if you tried, right? Seriously, talking to you... The GM with the lowest IQ ever on this planet.

04/09/2019 06:25 AMPosted by PointsThief
Nobody was gas stealing against anybody. You gotta send a freaking probe before you even make a pylon to gas steal. Then, when a probe is in your base that early... you can still deny them from taking the gas.

xD Again your shortsighted moroness. You HAVE to deny them stealing gas is equal to you to "nobody is ever stealing any". And if they had a chance to do so? Oh wait, that question is beyond your imagination capabilities.

But I understand that at pro level nobody ever probe scouts.

In your ignorance you might have also forgotten the fact, that NOT EVERYBODY except GM has dropped Sc2. There are still some people in the other leagues as well. Gas stealing was 24/7 from low masters to platin. David Kim is gone, so the dev team might not only listen to Snute anymore.

Every year there's a GM level moron in the forums. Funny thing is that they never say the same thing. Not even remotely. xD

04/09/2019 06:25 AMPosted by PointsThief
It's so ironical/weird that I happened to take gas from my opponent in my last P vs P, for the first time ever.

Right. xD Or maybe you only have a very, very, very, VERY bad memory.

04/09/2019 06:25 AMPosted by PointsThief
Dead serious.
20*45HP. 900HP, dummy, while the other races only 500. Every Protoss on earth was gas stealing.

Hold position your worker on the gas. Only brain dead idiots gas steal or get their gas stolen.

04/09/2019 06:25 AMPosted by PointsThief
Guy should wear a clown nose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4OhbzSFpnk
WTF! xD You couldn't describe what you do in a more stupid way, even if you tried, right?
I wouldn't be whining about cannon rushes if it was a good response.

Once you notice a guy is going to cannon rush, you throw down a forge. It does jack s to counter a well executed one. It just helps prevent a guy from having "100 attempts at it." Because, obviously, eventually you're going to have a cannon up. Or anywhere he makes a pylon, you can just make a pylon yourself, and make your own cannons to negate his.

A forge is just a way to put a shot clock on a guy to beat you with cannon rushes. It's probably a pretty stupid response against a guy who is able to transition, but for those guys who you know who are 100% committed, it can be okay.

There aren't any great options against cannon rushing, so there's nothing to describe that makes sense. Even if you keep a guy out of your base, he can still do the stupid void ray contain thing.

04/09/2019 07:42 AMPosted by SinsWhisper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4OhbzSFpnk
lol
It's just sad that the proper response to an early forge is to get an early forge of your own. I feel like I'm tossing away any advantage I may have had. Makes the cannon rush even less risky too because worst case you force out a forge and go even on your investment.
04/09/2019 09:07 AMPosted by TheBentOne
It's just sad that the proper response to an early forge is to get an early forge of your own. I feel like I'm tossing away any advantage I may have had. Makes the cannon rush even less risky too because worst case you force out a forge and go even on your investment.
I'm not really sure what the proper response is, if there is one. I've never really seen anyone, outside of one guy (Rob), who seemed confident of his strategy against it.

I believe he was trying to pylon off his ramp and just get stalkers out asap. I believe last time I saw parting playing in a tournament, his toss opponent had a probe on the low ground, on patrol.

So, even the best Korean pros are on edge/worried about this and not confident in their ability to just react, after the fact.

From my limited experience and my limited experience in seeing printf lose, the "best counter" is simply killing their probes. It sounds silly, but you rarely ever see printf lose games where he didn't lose both of his probes. It makes a big difference in how hard it is to pull off when they're reducing the hp on your probe and making you play keep away.
04/09/2019 08:31 AMPosted by PointsThief
A forge is just a way to put a shot clock on a guy to beat you with cannon rushes. It's probably a pretty stupid response against a guy who is able to transition, but for those guys who you know who are 100% committed, it can be okay.

There aren't any great options against cannon rushing, so there's nothing to describe that makes sense. Even if you keep a guy out of your base, he can still do the stupid void ray contain thing.

A forge is required if the cannonrush is too early and aggressive, otherwise Cybercore is the way better option.

Maybe I have way more experience with cannon rushs? How many GM are cannonrushing after all? In diamond 2vs2 there are SEVERAL players out of a quite tiny playerpool, who cannonrush every single game. Whenever I play, I meet mostly the same people, even despite months of breaks inbetween my games. Some of these people always cannonrush.

04/08/2019 09:53 AMPosted by PointsThief
https://drop.sc/replay/10279994

Well he lost quite a few things unnecessarily, 3 probes against the cannon, 1 against the unexpected Zealot, lost his Zealot and Pylon without doing anything. He didn't scout at all. He planted the Nexus way later and yet was only 2 Phoenix behind. If you ask me - it's not the cannonrush that is the problem of this game. It's the fact that 30 vs 28 Phoenix win with 15 Phoenix leftovers.

If what you describe is true (though I doubt it), then cannonrush might be the only rush in the game that doesn't automatically put the rusher behind. Which is actually a good thing.

Who said this lately in this forum: you can't expect the opponent to play by your rules.

04/08/2019 09:53 AMPosted by PointsThief
If they would actually learn how to get a high MMR while playing even games (without cannons), then they could probably have a 90% winrate in P vs P, if not higher...

Yep, that's the mentality of GMs, why you probably have less experience against cannon rushs. You want a real game.

But if I always proxied, I would win vs Hero. Like sOs did. Just keep not scouting at all.
04/09/2019 10:08 AMPosted by iLLuSia
Yep, that's the mentality of GMs, why you probably have less experience against cannon rushs. You want a real game.

All I'm doing is stating facts. Their MMRs are inflated by cannon rushing. So, if they DON'T end up far ahead or win from it, then they're boned. All I'm saying is if they could reach the same MMR without cannon rushing, then their cannon rush would be that much stronger.

When you're playing against Weedamins, you're not playing against a Masters level player. You're playing against a Platinum level player who is in Masters due to abusing 1 broken thing.

So, against a guy like that... you know.... "f it... I can take ALL OF MY PROBES off mining just to make sure I stop him from getting the cannons up, since he couldn't even beat the computer without having his all-in work."

Printf would be the scariest Toss in the world if he could also play at that same MMR without cannons.

04/09/2019 10:08 AMPosted by iLLuSia
But if I always proxied, I would win vs Hero. Like sOs did. Just keep not scouting at all.
Obvious minded approach. Everyone can realize the games they lost due to not scouting something, but no one ever realizes the games someone lost due to scouting earlier and not gaining anything from it.

If my opponents were forced to pylon scout vs me, my win rate would definitely increase. Thus, they don't. I see nothing wrong with the cyber scouting I'm doing atm. The only thing I'm not able to figure out is if someone were to fake a cannon rush. Given that's the least common thing ever, my scouting is the highest % move you could do.
04/06/2019 06:22 AMPosted by ToServeZerg
obviously the answer is make gateway the requirement for cannons.

Ftfy
obviously the answer is make forge the requirement for gateways.


04/06/2019 04:32 AMPosted by PointsThief
Thread to congratulate me on executing the hardest, yet most balanced strat in the game. I'll walk you through it (all P vs P games).

First time around, I botched the cannon rush, cause no idea what I was doing. Still won.

Second time around, I used my amazing mind to figure out where to place a pylon. This resulted in my opponent leaving a couple seconds after his first zealot was out. Totally deserved win. Might be my proudest W. Ofc... my opponent was enthralled by what he saw and congratulated me on how well I played the game (not).

Third time around, I was getting chased by so many probes that I used my amazing mind, again, to say "I can just transition to a 'standard game' and guy would have no chance of winning, due to eco already lost." Guess what happened...

The wins come so easy and fast, it's hard to keep track of. Sure I played more than mentioned. Every game, equally stupid.

Protoss is a s race. It's absolutely god awful. Yet, the ONE THING IN THE WORLD THAT IS COMPLETELY F'ING BROKEN NEVER GETS NERFED? Quit being imbeciles and nerf it already. God.

Then again... I think the assimilator might have 20 HP too much. Totally changing outcomes of games and making games totally unplayable. Where the f do they find these guys?

It's no different than 12 pool variants in ZvZ, which are incredibly easy to do yet incredibly hard to stop, and proxy 2 rax reaper in TvT. The cannon rush in PvP is the easiest out of all of these to defend.
04/09/2019 10:42 AMPosted by tEhbAtZ
The cannon rush in PvP is the easiest out of all of these to defend.
You don't even play as Toss. How would you know? These cannon rushers literally have the mentality of they can't lose unless they f up. They don't even know what the counter is.

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