Should enemy spawns/pathing be more random?

Co-op Missions Discussion
Spawns are predictable on every map (or 50-50 chance on some) and spawnpoints can just be camped with static once cleared. Also enemy pathing is almost always the same and on some maps ultraboring and ez (temple, void rifts).
Would be nice if waves would have more random spawnpoints when spawning and would avoid the points that are camped.
04/05/2019 06:33 AMPosted by Boutneus
Spawns are predictable on every map (or 50-50 chance on some) and spawnpoints can just be camped with static once cleared. Also enemy pathing is almost always the same and on some maps ultraboring and ez (temple, void rifts).
Would be nice if waves would have more random spawnpoints when spawning and would avoid the points that are camped.


Yes, at least on brutal
If youre bored with camping them, then stop? Having more randomized spawn points wouldn't stop camping, it would just make it take a little longer to prepare.
04/05/2019 09:29 AMPosted by Kelthar
If youre bored with camping them, then stop? Having more randomized spawn points wouldn't stop camping, it would just make it take a little longer to prepare.

And AFK while your teammate camps because there’s nothing left of the map to kill?

What I think is they need more ways to be able to speed up the mission once you get to the point of spawn camping, e.g. being able to destroy the launch bays on void launch.
Not only that, but the AI should avoid clumping up the entire attack wave so it isn't easily smashed within 1.2 seconds.

Some kind of improved AI micro would be cool to see as well.
Random spawn location might be easy enough to implement. Just have it check the entire map for ground terrain that can path to a player's start location that's some number of units near ally (amon) structures and away from enemy (player) structures. If none is found just drop it anywhere. Maybe after 6 minutes you could remove structure distance limitations entirely.

Different enemy pathing is an entirely different problem altogether though. I have seen some player made maps on sc2mapster assign certain locations on the map a number and have the waves move through a randomly selected predetermined pattern of them, but this doesn't really work in coop since the only map that requires players to really spread out their armies away from their bases is Mist Opportunities.

A possible solution is to have every enemy wave have a chance to simply attack move towards a randomly selected player structure on the map until it's dead (at which point it can randomly select another structure). This would solve the problem of enemy waves never attacking certain bases on some maps, but it's still the default attack move pathing that exists currently.

EDIT ~ People really overestimate the difficulty increase that would come with the randomization of enemy spawns or even the entire removal of the enemy ping. This is an old test map I made using Terin's speedrun map you can play with the enemy ping removed battlenet:://starcraft/map/1/305583 if you want to test this yourself. Here's a list of the changes
Most Terran campaign upgrades given to AI at start or gradually
Terran upgrades armor and weapon upgrades 25% earlier
Attack wave size increased by an additional 1.1x per wave
Edited Terran units wave 2+ to the elite varient
Removed Voice Over for attacking waves
Removed enemy attack wave ping
Essense/biomass halved
EDIT ~ This thread has a lot of information about this topic as well. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20770586898?page=1

TL;DR: You can kind of implement these changes but they would barely change the difficulty of the mission just due to the way the coop missions are set up.
Personally, I don't think they should concentrate that much effort altering the mechanics of present missions. What they SHOULD concentrate on, is making more fun mutators and even analyzing past mutations to see how they can make it harder. It may be just as simple as adding an extra mutator for the next repeat. Like if the winrate is > 10% or something, add a mutator. If the winrate is < 10%, use this mutation combo on a "more favorable map". ...or whatever.

You can't make regular missions so hard that it would discourage newcomers who might actually buy commanders and stuff to fund the project. But you can make mutations harder so that it would challenge enthusiasts that want to push their commander skills to the limits in variable playstyle every week. Because these regular Brutation players will get bored of any map anyway (no matter how random the spawns are).
04/05/2019 06:33 AMPosted by Boutneus
Spawns are predictable on every map (or 50-50 chance on some) and spawnpoints can just be camped with static once cleared. Also enemy pathing is almost always the same and on some maps ultraboring and ez (temple, void rifts).
Would be nice if waves would have more random spawnpoints when spawning and would avoid the points that are camped.


DEFINITELY. This could be a matter of difficulty or in all levels, because even if it doesn't increase the difficulty much it makes the game more interesting, fun and replayable.

(I'd say something like, select 2 spots with a path to the target, but Not within 20 of friendly objectives/friendly bases...they warp in at whatever of the two spots is farther from any player units/buildings)

04/05/2019 11:08 AMPosted by MyCC
Not only that, but the AI should avoid clumping up the entire attack wave so it isn't easily smashed within 1.2 seconds.

Some kind of improved AI micro would be cool to see as well.


That would be a simple matter of making more smaller waves (ie 3 small waves all warping in at the same time (different locations) instead of one large one
Many of us have talked about this for years. More randomness at least on brutal, would be a welcome change. But it could also apply to objectives. Take the train map, why do the trains also come in the same lane and same direction at a specific time. Some randomness would make it more tense and interesting.
See this too often without consideration for a large portion of player base that are not as skilled as some on the forum. While it would be nice for me personally to have a) randomness and/or b) no pinged waves, it would make it too difficult for a lot of people. And there is no actual benefit to even higher skilled players either. The work and resources devoted to making this possible to every map, every comp, and without glitchy bugs would better serve into developing new content of higher quality instead (perhaps even with said features).
The only maps where I ever see people spawn-camping are Mist Opportunities (because there's sooo much time before and after the last group of harvester bots, even when you destroy the enemy base) and Void Launch (because the bonus objectives are easy to clear early, so there isn't much else to do besides clear the rest and camp the launch bays). It usually isn't a big deal on these maps since the spawn points are sufficiently far apart that a single player typically won't cover all of them even when camping (not to say that it isn't possible if you go really ham on turrets on Void Launch, spider mines on Mist, or whatever, but it's uncommon).

Temple and Oblivion Express are theoretically very easy to spawn-camp, but for whatever reason, I hardly ever see anybody bother except maybe on mutations. It's rare to see people even anticipating the Void Thrashers on Temple. Just my experience, anyway.

I think on Void Launch and Mist, at least, the problem could be alleviated by tightening some of the timings on the higher difficulties so that players aren't waiting around as much.
04/05/2019 05:11 PMPosted by FearrWhalins
See this too often without consideration for a large portion of player base that are not as skilled as some on the forum. While it would be nice for me personally to have a) randomness and/or b) no pinged waves, it would make it too difficult for a lot of people.

I agree. I think the point of having the telegraphed waves in co-op (when there's no indicator in the campaign, in comparison) is so you're not punished so much if your ally isn't very alert. The number of attack waves is balanced for two players, after all, so if you have to cover all of them with no indicators because your ally is a goof, it'd be a bit much for most players to handle in an ordinary (non-mutation, non-solo) match.
04/05/2019 05:11 PMPosted by FearrWhalins
See this too often without consideration for a large portion of player base that are not as skilled as some on the forum. While it would be nice for me personally to have a) randomness and/or b) no pinged waves, it would make it too difficult for a lot of people. And there is no actual benefit to even higher skilled players either. The work and resources devoted to making this possible to every map, every comp, and without glitchy bugs would better serve into developing new content of higher quality instead (perhaps even with said features).


I think an easy way to challenge more skilled players (who have already beat the weekly mutation) would be to just have an option to add one random mutator. Maybe you can even earn some difficulty bonus XP to get an incentive to do this instead of "spawn camping pwnage" to grind levels. So in essence, the game mechanics is already in place to have Brutal+ or even Brutal++ (via 2 random mutators). They just have to develop the match selection and bonus XP interface.
04/05/2019 07:00 PMPosted by rasmasyean
04/05/2019 05:11 PMPosted by FearrWhalins
See this too often without consideration for a large portion of player base that are not as skilled as some on the forum. While it would be nice for me personally to have a) randomness and/or b) no pinged waves, it would make it too difficult for a lot of people. And there is no actual benefit to even higher skilled players either. The work and resources devoted to making this possible to every map, every comp, and without glitchy bugs would better serve into developing new content of higher quality instead (perhaps even with said features).


I think an easy way to challenge more skilled players (who have already beat the weekly mutation) would be to just have an option to add one random mutator. Maybe you can even earn some difficulty bonus XP to get an incentive to do this instead of "spawn camping pwnage" to grind levels. So in essence, the game mechanics is already in place to have Brutal+ or even Brutal++ (via 2 random mutators). They just have to develop the match selection and bonus XP interface.
I don't oppose adding a queue option for this, but I DO oppose adding an XP bonus for it. There's already too many people queueing for higher difficulty than they can handle hoping to get carried for the XP, we don't need to give them a difficulty they can handle even less.
Yeah that is definitely the easiest and simplest way to have “Brutal+, etc.” I don’t think the xp incentive would really change anything because it already exists as a behaviour. The people who wants to be carried will still join the newer difficulties regardless if there is a xp incentive.

This is a very old concept though. I believe when Mutation was first introduced, the possibility of mutator adding x percent more bonus xp was proposed. It’s really the same idea retold. Blizzard and some people were anti this idea because they didn’t want it as a driving factor for players to enjoy the game, as it was originally designed.

Both sides have valid points. I don’t personally believe the anti-perspective in this case. The maps as it is currently can still be played as intended. Adding xp incentive for mutators (and calling them Brutal 1-xxx) won’t take that away.
On Void Launch, many of my allies destroy the shuttles and their enemy waves even when they're still within the northern ridges. On select few, they push into enemy bases, clear them, and basically camp at the shuttle spawn points. One even built a few towers for better effect.

I've had one map where I was able to take out a few waves just prior to the spawn points... I was Stukov, ally was a pre-Mastery Tychus. He actually died a few times (Tychus himself and 2 other Outlaws). That left quite a few holes to fill, which I did with a line of Inf. Bunkers and Missile Turrets near the Transwarp points. Shuttles went down shortly after they came in range.

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