Let's be real

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04/09/2019 03:03 PMPosted by ImctrEU
Funny when theorycraft degenerates like this one:
04/08/2019 07:29 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
...
Average ZvP ELO in tournaments: 342.9130.
Average PvZ ELO in tournaments: 372.6922.

Terran Cry Force: ZERG IS PREVENTING PROTOSS FROM WINNING TOURNAMENTS!

...
Yes, I am the hypocrite for being the one with an informed oppinion. Please, continue to prove my points for me!


and this one

04/08/2019 07:53 AMPosted by Farbros
because korean terrans build ghosts, libs and other t2-t3 units, while europe terrans like uthermal play marine-tanks against ultras-banelings-hydras-infestors-vipers for 20 minutes from 3 bases (sometimes 2) and logicaly lose


discuss balance, like the ones who make the balance cant make their own conclusions need the degenerates with troll posts to decide balance.

Please teach WCS Players that they need to use Ghosts, they totally need your Gold league advice
1) is this so hard to type my nickname in rankedftw? or should i help you with that? https://www.rankedftw.com/player/2014097/ 2)the post i respond to, was asking why korean terrans have good performance and europe dont, where i said, because korean terrans are using casters and europe terrans building poor marines with tanks against fully t3 zergs withouts ghosts, so their tanks get abducted and marines killed by ultras. Vipers, ultras, broodlords and infestors can be countered by ghosts, what i wrote, if you dont build them, but build poor marines, its the answer why you lose against storms, ultras and so on, same as players like uthermal do, but if you want to build marine-tanks for 20 minutes and believe that its okay, do that, but dont blame balance for your lose.
04/10/2019 04:02 AMPosted by Farbros
1) is this so hard to type my nickname in rankedftw? or should i help you with that? https://www.rankedftw.com/player/2014097/ 2)the post i respond to, was asking why korean terrans have good performance and europe dont, where i said, because korean terrans are using casters and europe terrans building poor marines with tanks against fully t3 zergs withouts ghosts, so their tanks get abducted and marines killed by ultras. Vipers, ultras, broodlords and infestors can be countered by ghosts, what i wrote, if you dont build them, but build poor marines, its the answer why you lose against storms, ultras and so on, same as players like uthermal do, but if you want to build marine-tanks for 20 minutes and believe that its okay, do that, but dont blame balance for your lose.

Please teach WCS Players that they need to use Ghosts, they totally need your Low Masters advice
04/10/2019 04:11 AMPosted by SinsWhisper
04/10/2019 04:02 AMPosted by Farbros
1) is this so hard to type my nickname in rankedftw? or should i help you with that? https://www.rankedftw.com/player/2014097/ 2)the post i respond to, was asking why korean terrans have good performance and europe dont, where i said, because korean terrans are using casters and europe terrans building poor marines with tanks against fully t3 zergs withouts ghosts, so their tanks get abducted and marines killed by ultras. Vipers, ultras, broodlords and infestors can be countered by ghosts, what i wrote, if you dont build them, but build poor marines, its the answer why you lose against storms, ultras and so on, same as players like uthermal do, but if you want to build marine-tanks for 20 minutes and believe that its okay, do that, but dont blame balance for your lose.

Please teach WCS Players that they need to use Ghosts, they totally need your Low Masters advice
why should i teach them? maybe innovation or ty should do that?
04/09/2019 10:42 PMPosted by SinsWhisper
04/09/2019 08:10 PMPosted by Shahzad
Zerg went almost an entire year without a premier win from 2017-2018. Before soO's IEM win Rogue was the only Korean Zerg to win a tournament in a 2 year span. Zerg also hasn't won a GSL in LOTV yet.
But yeah, Terran is only race that knows struggle. You're such brave warriors for playing this incredibly difficult, weak race.

"Wah wah Zerg hasn't won enough"

You're a joke, you think that just because you haven't won enough tournaments you race is indisputably weak. Imagine having 3 Zerg players in the ro.32, this forum would be up in a blaze of Zerg tears.

https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S

https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2014_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_2/Code_S

I think this isn't even representative of how bad of a spot Terran was in, Maru was just amazing in his results. Every other Terran player gets knocked out in the ro.16 but Maru falls in the semi finals to the same player that won the GSL with the same score as the finals.


You're right. Terran is the only race that has ever struggled in SC2. I can't imagine how high your mmr would be if you played one of the ez races. I'm amazed at your awesome talent and wish I could be as strong as you.
04/10/2019 05:59 AMPosted by Shahzad
You're right. Terran is the only race that has ever struggled in SC2. I can't imagine how high your mmr would be if you played one of the ez races. I'm amazed at your awesome talent and wish I could be as strong as you.

This is it folks, this is the response someone who's brain dead bias compels them to preach a message to a reasonable perspective looks like. He's not engaging with me at all. I talk about Maru as a skilled player and then talk about how well he's done and the discussion has to come back to Zerg players feeling insecure about themselves and trying to justify that they are not, in fact, playing a race that hasn't been as turbulent as Terran. I'm not talking about current balance and that should be clear, but this Zerg player cannot help himself. He is compelled to justify to others the plight of his own race.
04/10/2019 06:06 AMPosted by SinsWhisper
I talk about Maru as a skilled player and then talk about how well he's done and the discussion has to come back to Zerg players feeling insecure about themselves and trying to justify that they are not


04/08/2019 01:08 PMPosted by SinsWhisper
Zerg and Protoss has never struggled in the way that Terran has, you have no idea what real imbalance feels like


Terran victim mentality in full force. This is why Terrans are constantly mocked.
04/10/2019 06:18 AMPosted by Shahzad
Terran victim mentality in full force. This is why Terrans are constantly mocked.

Yes, you objectively have never suffered through anything as rough as the blink era. Am I whining for stating that at one point Terran has had to deal with significant imbalance that, no matter how good you were, could not be overcome? It's not the current balance and I'm not saying Terran is as weak as you're making Zerg out to be.
Balance seems to be in a good place TBH... Very BW-esque in that every race has a MU they struggle in and a MU they do well in. Not sure how blink era is relevant when this thread is about 2018/2019.

I dont think people are acknowledging how much a single player's mental game can skew results. Take someone like soO who destroys Stats/Maru/Inno on ladder, makes a million deep runs, and then chokes in every finals (excluding his recent win). Really need to look at 2nd/3rd/4th place finishes as well to get a better picture.
04/10/2019 04:02 AMPosted by Farbros
1) is this so hard to type my nickname in rankedftw? or should i help you with that? https://www.rankedftw.com/player/2014097/ 2)the post i respond to, was asking why korean terrans have good performance and europe dont, where i said, because korean terrans are using casters and europe terrans building poor marines with tanks against fully t3 zergs withouts ghosts, so their tanks get abducted and marines killed by ultras. Vipers, ultras, broodlords and infestors can be countered by ghosts, what i wrote, if you dont build them, but build poor marines, its the answer why you lose against storms, ultras and so on, same as players like uthermal do, but if you want to build marine-tanks for 20 minutes and believe that its okay, do that, but dont blame balance for your lose.


You judge by few games you saw them building just marine tank medivac. You should know that there is a build that adds early Lib upgrades and late ghosts and in top playing it is uncommon to see Ghost uses even at KR level. I was getting ONE game of Maru to use for build order because every other build makes Ghost beyond 10th minute, sometimes around 14th and on, and since most games if T wins end before that you do not see them. That's because they play on mass run and drops, Lib range, somehow manage to evade some Protoss storms, without the need for Ghost.

But such like us need them earlier because Protoss lamers go early Robo Colossus and as early as possible HT every game, to make defense and expand easy.

Claiming WCS players lose because they miss Gold league basics is laughable. Plus, i've seen them using Ghosts around the same time KR's do, just not all the time for said reason of the build, idk what you r talking.

It is full of such fake apologies on this forum why T loses, to not say the matchup is bad.
04/10/2019 06:41 AMPosted by SinsWhisper
04/10/2019 06:18 AMPosted by Shahzad
Terran victim mentality in full force. This is why Terrans are constantly mocked.

Yes, you objectively have never suffered through anything as rough as the blink era. Am I whining for stating that at one point Terran has had to deal with significant imbalance that, no matter how good you were, could not be overcome? It's not the current balance and I'm not saying Terran is as weak as you're making Zerg out to be.


GOMTvT? Widow mines in early HOTS? Zerg going almost a full year without winning a premier tournament?
I keep forgetting it only counts if Terran struggles.
04/10/2019 07:28 AMPosted by Shahzad
04/10/2019 06:41 AMPosted by SinsWhisper
...
Yes, you objectively have never suffered through anything as rough as the blink era. Am I whining for stating that at one point Terran has had to deal with significant imbalance that, no matter how good you were, could not be overcome? It's not the current balance and I'm not saying Terran is as weak as you're making Zerg out to be.


GOMTvT? Widow mines in early HOTS? Zerg going almost a full year without winning a premier tournament?
I keep forgetting it only counts if Terran struggles.


You realise widow mines in early HotS were exactly the same as widow mines at the end of HotS for zerg? The whole reason that zerg had a problem with them was solely based on the fact that they had absolutely never had to micro in TvZ before and took an eternity to adapt to them. In fact, the widow mine nerf in HotS was the direct cause of the Blink Era in the first place because of zerg whinging.

GomTvT I wasn't around for, but the game was still new back then. Its a pretty big stretch. Frankly, neither the Blink Era, GomTvT and Zerg's so called struggles at the beginning of HotS (they weren't) don't have any bearing on games today.
04/10/2019 07:38 AMPosted by Miro
Frankly, neither the Blink Era, GomTvT and Zerg's so called struggles at the beginning of HotS (they weren't) don't have any bearing on games today


If you actually read the posts you'd see Sins said that Zerg and Protoss have never struggled in SC2 and don't know what imbalance feels like. It had nothing to do with the state of the game today.

04/10/2019 07:38 AMPosted by Miro
The whole reason that zerg had a problem with them was solely based on the fact that they had absolutely never had to micro in TvZ


Because mutalisks were such an a-move unit and a-moving banes into tanks and marauders works really well. Another crock of !@#$ from a Terran.
04/10/2019 09:37 AMPosted by Shahzad
04/10/2019 07:38 AMPosted by Miro
Frankly, neither the Blink Era, GomTvT and Zerg's so called struggles at the beginning of HotS (they weren't) don't have any bearing on games today


If you actually read the posts you'd see Sins said that Zerg and Protoss have never struggled in SC2 and don't know what imbalance feels like. It had nothing to do with the state of the game today.

04/10/2019 07:38 AMPosted by Miro
The whole reason that zerg had a problem with them was solely based on the fact that they had absolutely never had to micro in TvZ


Because mutalisks were such an a-move unit and a-moving banes into tanks and marauders works really well. Another crock of !@#$ from a Terran.


I was there. I watched it happen often enough. There was no splitting in tvz on the zerg side before, because tanks shelled the unit that was closest to them (except when they were within that limit radius). And frankly, terrans back then disnt have the capability of being able to target fire banes with tanks and do splits etc in WoL. Banes wasting themselves on marauders happened all the time in WoL because the economy was significantly different and macro wasn't as good back then. Not to mention micro being less than what a diamond player can do today. Nine years this game has been going. So yeah, Zerg had very little micro, if any, to do in WoL outside of keeping mutas alive. Hence why when it came to HotS, they struggled against widow mines because it actually forced micro from Zergs they weren't used to doing in that matchup. In fact the moment the widow mine was reverted back to its original state after the blink era, zerg didn't have any issue with them because they had been able to adapt to the micro requirements.

I'm also aware of what Sins said (though again, its a pointless argument that has no bearing on anything today), and realistically speaking, he isnt really wrong. Outside of maybe the gomTvT era, which as I stated before, i didnt see so I cannot be certain about that one, I cannot think of a single point in time in which zerg or protoss had 2-4 players in the GSL round of 32. Or even in international tournaments. Frankly, outside of gomTvT, im not sure protoss and zerg have actually had a period of time when they have legitimately been struggling.

Not winning tournaments =/= struggling because the players are there. The games are there. If you have a trend in which only one zerg makes it through to the ro8 in multiple tournaments, then yeah, probably an issue there. But that isnt the case. Zerg players manage to make it to the finals and the semi finals all the time. Though it does admittedly suck when your race doesnt win, and I can understand why players of any race would complain about it.
04/10/2019 10:08 AMPosted by Miro
Frankly, outside of gomTvT, im not sure protoss and zerg have actually had a period of time when they have legitimately been struggling.


Your whole post was delusional but this is the dumbest of the dumb. You honestly have no idea what you're talking about so I'm not even going to bother with you.
04/10/2019 10:08 AMPosted by Miro
I was there. I watched it happen often enough. There was no splitting in tvz on the zerg side before, because tanks shelled the unit that was closest to them (except when they were within that limit radius). And frankly, terrans back then disnt have the capability of being able to target fire banes with tanks and do splits etc in WoL. Banes wasting themselves on marauders happened all the time in WoL because the economy was significantly different and macro wasn't as good back then

You should have watched it with YOUR EYES OPEN. Terrans were able to targetfire Banelings, and Zergs were able to split. However, tanks have an AoE of 1.25 (with zones, doing only 50% above 0.5 and 25% above 0.8 out of 35 damage vs light at that time) and WMs have 1.75 (doing 40 damage in the whole area, specifically designed to kill Ling/Bane), so indeed Zergs were forced to learn to split even better. But both tank and WM target whatever comes into their range first. Zergs only rarely attacked from multiple angles because the maps didn't allow it, so that was another thing they HAD to learn in addition to splitting, while Terran was simply given an easier option, because DK sucked at playing it.

WM costs 1/3 of a tank; just killing 5 Lings is enough to make them cost effective and the Terran not care about losing them afterwards. With the higher AoE and ability to attack air (and onehit most of it) AND being cloaked they outclassed tanks in nearly every way. They even unburrow faster.

On top of that Zerg has to split first. If the Zerg messes up and too many of his Banelings blow up, the Terran can just close his eyes and wait because neither Ling nor Muta is able to even remotely contest a Marine army of equal cost.

There are Ultras, of course; but then again Ghosts have been specifically designed to 3 shot them (everything else can kite them). That's why snipe is doing 170 and not 160 or 150 damage. Someone in the dev team really wanted Terran to be easier vs Zerg.

Is the rest of your post equal bull!@#$? Because I didn't read.
04/10/2019 07:28 AMPosted by Shahzad
GOMTvT?

Can you refer me to the highest level games at the time that exhibit this point and direct me towards multiple seasons of GSL that showed that either Zerg or Protoss weren't competitive?

04/10/2019 07:28 AMPosted by Shahzad
Widow mines in early HOTS?

Little baby needs his bottle to feel better, his race isn't dominating so he thinks other races need to be nerfed

04/10/2019 07:28 AMPosted by Shahzad
Zerg going almost a full year without winning a premier tournament?

LMFAO, this is my point, you're such a pampered race that you think not winning a premier tournament is indicative of imbalance.

04/10/2019 07:28 AMPosted by Shahzad
I keep forgetting it only counts if Terran struggles.

Like I said before, and I'm so happy you continue to reiterate your moronic ideas for me to mock, Zerg and Protoss do not know what real imbalance feels like.
04/10/2019 10:49 AMPosted by Shahzad
04/10/2019 10:08 AMPosted by Miro
Frankly, outside of gomTvT, im not sure protoss and zerg have actually had a period of time when they have legitimately been struggling.


Your whole post was delusional but this is the dumbest of the dumb. You honestly have no idea what you're talking about so I'm not even going to bother with you.


Thats cute. You don't have anything to say because what I said was the truth whether you like it or not.

04/10/2019 12:54 PMPosted by iLLuSia
04/10/2019 10:08 AMPosted by Miro
I was there. I watched it happen often enough. There was no splitting in tvz on the zerg side before, because tanks shelled the unit that was closest to them (except when they were within that limit radius). And frankly, terrans back then disnt have the capability of being able to target fire banes with tanks and do splits etc in WoL. Banes wasting themselves on marauders happened all the time in WoL because the economy was significantly different and macro wasn't as good back then

You should have watched it with YOUR EYES OPEN. Terrans were able to targetfire Banelings, and Zergs were able to split. However, tanks have an AoE of 1.25 (with zones, doing only 50% above 0.5 and 25% above 0.8 out of 35 damage vs light at that time) and WMs have 1.75 (doing 40 damage in the whole area, specifically designed to kill Ling/Bane), so indeed Zergs were forced to learn to split even better. But both tank and WM target whatever comes into their range first. Zergs only rarely attacked from multiple angles because the maps didn't allow it, so that was another thing they HAD to learn in addition to splitting, while Terran was simply given an easier option, because DK sucked at playing it.

WM costs 1/3 of a tank; just killing 5 Lings is enough to make them cost effective and the Terran not care about losing them afterwards. With the higher AoE and ability to attack air (and onehit most of it) AND being cloaked they outclassed tanks in nearly every way. They even unburrow faster.

On top of that Zerg has to split first. If the Zerg messes up and too many of his Banelings blow up, the Terran can just close his eyes and wait because neither Ling nor Muta is able to even remotely contest a Marine army of equal cost.

There are Ultras, of course; but then again Ghosts have been specifically designed to 3 shot them (everything else can kite them). That's why snipe is doing 170 and not 160 or 150 damage. Someone in the dev team really wanted Terran to be easier vs Zerg.

Is the rest of your post equal bull!@#$? Because I didn't read.


Tanks were there to soften up the zerg army, just enough that a terran didnt immediately die to an overwhelming number of LingBling while the terran players had to split against ling bane and hope that the banes wasted themselves more on the marauders than the marines. Zerg never really had to do splitting in TvZ at all in WoL - their challenge was trying to snipe tanks with mutalisks, which at the time, didn't have regeneration speed like they do now taking damage on mutas meant a lot more then because it made it harder to pick off tanks as a result.

In fact we saw almost this exact scenario play out in HotS too, when they nerfed the widow mine initially. They cut the radius of effective damage on the mine and slaughtered its ability to deal with ling bane entirely, which resulted in zerg armies quite literally rolling over terran armies with nothing they could do. Zergs didnt even have make any attempt to split against them because they were so weak that it wasnt worth the effort. Terrans changed things up by switching back into tanks, they tried going bio thor hellbat, bio tank hellbat, mech (since they also buffed mech by merging ground and air weapons to compensate), and just about everything in between. In the end Terran players went back to the 4M style because it was still the best shot they had at the time, even though it was completely unsuccessful.

We arent talking about now FYI. Now is very different for all players of the game. Now zerg do have to split versus terran, just as terran have to split versus zerg. Same as they did at the end of HotS blink era.

As for ultras, why is this even coming up? What foes it have to do with the conversation?

Yes ghosts snipe ultras. But there is plenty of counterplay to it. A single point of damage is enough to cancel it. Fungals, ultra AOE, bane splash, even a single zergling, assuming you don't lose your overseers! Its not imbalanced. Strong, certainly, but im not sure its "imba" if thats what you're saying.
04/10/2019 03:40 AMPosted by llllllllllll
If there is a few players who is vastly superior to the rest of the population, naturally they will win. And they deserve it.

https://i.imgur.com/3UaltI7.jpg

Terran ELO vs All Races:
Mean: 373.7617. Standard Deviation: 162.1020

Zerg ELO vs All Races:
Mean: 361.5365. Standard Deviation: 159.9534

Protoss ELO vs All Races:
Mean: 350.1405. Standard Deviation: 153.4491
04/10/2019 04:31 PMPosted by SinsWhisper
04/10/2019 07:28 AMPosted by Shahzad
GOMTvT?

Can you refer me to the highest level games at the time that exhibit this point and direct me towards multiple seasons of GSL that showed that either Zerg or Protoss weren't competitive?

04/10/2019 07:28 AMPosted by Shahzad
Widow mines in early HOTS?

Little baby needs his bottle to feel better, his race isn't dominating so he thinks other races need to be nerfed

04/10/2019 07:28 AMPosted by Shahzad
Zerg going almost a full year without winning a premier tournament?

LMFAO, this is my point, you're such a pampered race that you think not winning a premier tournament is indicative of imbalance.

04/10/2019 07:28 AMPosted by Shahzad
I keep forgetting it only counts if Terran struggles.

Like I said before, and I'm so happy you continue to reiterate your moronic ideas for me to mock, Zerg and Protoss do not know what real imbalance feels like.


No, you're right. Terran is the only race that's struggled, which makes your achievements that much more impressive than everyone else's. It's so unfair that amazing talents like you are held back by playing such a demanding race. You're definitely not whiny children ranting on the internet, you just have it so difficult and none of us understand.

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