To all of you "brutal is too easy" players

Co-op Missions Discussion
Nov 21: "Brutal not that brutal" ... "I bought Zeratul 2 weeks ago"
Jul 24: "Brutal+" ... "I am Ascension 200+ and I literally can't lose a game"
Oct 8: "Make brutal harder" ... "I understand there are mutations but brutal is too easy"
Sep 20: "Is it time for Ultra-Brutal?" ... "Co-op has always suffered from powercreep..."
Apr 19: "Difficulty beyond Brutal" ... "Many of us in community have been yearning for difficulty beyond Brutal..."

What do you think of this week's mutation? Is it an appropriate level of difficulty? Is this how difficult Brutal should be, that it requires pre-planning and 2 good-great players to beat?

This week's mutation:
- Hard to be carry solo
- Instant army wipe without careful positioning or constant micro
- "Cheese" strategy of spawn-camping not widely known
- Many complaints on forum for being too hard, praise for people who beat it
- Cannot be beaten by AFK building turrets or massing 1 unit type
- Likely cannot be beaten by Sub-15 Commanders
03/27/2019 05:57 PMPosted by Wintermelon
What do you think of this week's mutation? Is it an appropriate level of difficulty? Is this how difficult Brutal should be, that it requires pre-planning and 2 good-great players to beat?
When players are talking about increased difficulty for brutal they mean that it should be something that is a worthy challenge. No one is asking for an increase in difficulty so much that it requires extreme tactics and meticulous planning.

Players want a middle ground but this week's mutation overshoots it by a long distance.
03/27/2019 06:19 PMPosted by Cybernetic
03/27/2019 05:57 PMPosted by Wintermelon
What do you think of this week's mutation? Is it an appropriate level of difficulty? Is this how difficult Brutal should be, that it requires pre-planning and 2 good-great players to beat?
When players are talking about increased difficulty for brutal they mean that it should be something that is a worthy challenge. No one is asking for an increase in difficulty so much that it requires extreme tactics and meticulous planning.

Players want a middle ground but this week's mutation overshoots it by a long distance.

Also, most people are mine/spawn camp cheesing as the way to win this, so...
Disclaimer: have not played it myself because I suck !@# at mutations and so I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole.

From what I've seen in the main thread complaining about this, people who normally consider mutations a reasonable challenge are finding this near impossible and even CtG had to cheese it with lots of pauses and rolling for a specific enemy comp to have a chance. If the guy's at the top gotta cheese like that, something about the balance is off.
03/27/2019 07:27 PMPosted by WireBender
Also, most people are mine/spawn camp cheesing as the way to win this, so...
My point still stands regardless of the tactics.
Am I the only one who find it reasonable for an endgame difficulty?

03/27/2019 05:57 PMPosted by Wintermelon
What do you think of this week's mutation? Is it an appropriate level of difficulty? Is this how difficult Brutal should be, that it requires pre-planning and 2 good-great players to beat?


An appropriate difficulty of mutation to be exact. An average difficulty of mutations in previous couple of months is probably more fitting to what brutal should have been.

This week's mutation:
- Hard to be carry solo
- Instant army wipe without careful positioning or constant micro
- "Cheese" strategy of spawn-camping not widely known
- Many complaints on forum for being too hard, praise for people who beat it
- Cannot be beaten by AFK building turrets or massing 1 unit type
- Likely cannot be beaten by Sub-15 Commanders


All of them except cheese would be great virtue of a good mutation.

I always thought Cold is the Void should be the standard difficulty of mutation games. Probably this should be the first one that exceeds it but not as much off considering how every commanders have become OP since then.

For the record I did not use any spawnkill exploit and still won the game. Soloing tactics might still need to abuse it, but for two players it's adequately difficult enough to challenge normally. And I'm not even a good player considering my APM being stuck around 120 or so for years.

This is a well-designed mutation IMO.
03/27/2019 08:57 PMPosted by Scox
I always thought Cold is the Void should be the standard difficulty of mutation games.
If mutations must be at least that difficult to complete then most players wouldn't even bother. You are giving them a reason not to play mutations at all and might as well ignore it altogether, forget it even exists.

Blizzard would be damaging co-op by making mutations appeal only to a very small group of players.

03/27/2019 08:57 PMPosted by Scox
This is a well-designed mutation IMO.
It cannot be "well designed" when only a select few are capable enough to beat it and many who have resorted to cheesing or unorthodox tactics to even have a chance.

Also, the heroes mutator does not scale down; you are still fighting Kerrigans with 5000 hp even at casual.

A well designed mutation would be one that most players find fun and challenging. Most players find this week's mutation totally not fun and an absurd challenge.
Some players wanted higher difficulty, Blizzard responded with mutations. But often mutations aren't fun but just annoying. They change gameplay too much. Brutal+ would be different, better experience.
Am I the only one who find it reasonable for an endgame difficulty?

03/27/2019 05:57 PMPosted by Wintermelon
What do you think of this week's mutation? Is it an appropriate level of difficulty? Is this how difficult Brutal should be, that it requires pre-planning and 2 good-great players to beat?


An appropriate difficulty of mutation to be exact. An average difficulty of mutations in previous couple of months is probably more fitting to what brutal should have been.

This week's mutation:
- Hard to be carry solo
- Instant army wipe without careful positioning or constant micro
- "Cheese" strategy of spawn-camping not widely known
- Many complaints on forum for being too hard, praise for people who beat it
- Cannot be beaten by AFK building turrets or massing 1 unit type
- Likely cannot be beaten by Sub-15 Commanders


All of them except cheese would be great virtue of a good mutation.

I always thought Cold is the Void should be the standard difficulty of mutation games. Probably this should be the first one that exceeds it but not as much off considering how every commanders have become OP since then.

For the record I did not use any spawnkill exploit and still won the game. Soloing tactics might still need to abuse it, but for two players it's adequately difficult enough to challenge normally. And I'm not even a good player considering my APM being stuck around 120 or so for years.

This is a well-designed mutation IMO.

While I agree with you to some extent, this particular mutation is way worse than Cold is the Void. Im a bit lazy to dig into the details, but the main reason (for me at least) is the lack of testing for this one. Now given how Co-op is oriented on giving players an additional layer of difficulty, while retaining 100% winrate for average players your thoughts won't find any support here.

Honestly, your remark about your APM says it all. I myself as an average dimond scrub rarely hit 150 and the majority of co-op players dont bother making it towards 70. So you're a pretty solid player for this game mode.
If I put aside issues with this mutation — doesn't scale well between difficulties, feels unfair, encourages cheesing — then the difficulty alone isn't too bad. It's not something you want to see each week, but once every 2-3 months is good.

Not being able to complete it on Brutal would feel better if it the mutator scaled properly on lower difficulties, and slower gamespeed wasn't so annoying.
03/27/2019 08:57 PMPosted by Scox
This is a well-designed mutation IMO.

-Really????? Every s.hit spawn a group of Heroes and almost every unit causes Silence is well-designed?? It will be difficult when only on spawn location spawns Heroes, not also on 3 shuttle spots! In couple times there comes on 5 places group of Heroes and Shuttle causes Silence, Heroes, Hybrids and Shuttle bodyguards too. This mutation is simply STUPID
03/27/2019 08:14 PMPosted by SneakyBeat
Disclaimer: have not played it myself because I suck !@# at mutations and so I'm not touching this one with a ten foot pole.

From what I've seen in the main thread complaining about this, people who normally consider mutations a reasonable challenge are finding this near impossible and even CtG had to cheese it with lots of pauses and rolling for a specific enemy comp to have a chance. If the guy's at the top gotta cheese like that, something about the balance is off.

Heh, this week is the Devolution Retribution of Mutations :D
This and the various wheel of misfortunes are the only weekly mutations that I'd label unfair difficulty.

But you're asking people that find regular brutal missions too easy about a weekly mutation...
If a mutation is doable only by breaking SC2 game mechanics (spawn camping ground protoss) so one mutation is out of the way for 80% of the match and the only other way around is to spam turrets as zeratul with Vorazun Crowd Control/Passives or Abathur mines, that in itself is not even an RTS mechanic... It means that you f@cked up badly with your muta difficulty and design, plus the crystalline proof that sc2 is on life support and almost no one on Blizzard even cares about it anymore
It’s just 4 mutation bounties, it’s ok.

While it’s frustrating, let’s all try to remember people screw up some times. I’m sure it’ll be fixed in the future or the lesson will carry forward.
03/29/2019 12:03 PMPosted by FearrWhalins
It’s just 4 mutation bounties, it’s ok.

While it’s frustrating, let’s all try to remember people screw up some times. I’m sure it’ll be fixed in the future or the lesson will carry forward.


Only one thing was good about this muta, when you finally best it, you literally reach Nirvana
03/29/2019 12:21 PMPosted by DefilerRulez
03/29/2019 12:03 PMPosted by FearrWhalins
It’s just 4 mutation bounties, it’s ok.

While it’s frustrating, let’s all try to remember people screw up some times. I’m sure it’ll be fixed in the future or the lesson will carry forward.


Only one thing was good about this muta, when you finally best it, you literally reach Nirvana


Haha, yeah for the last of my winning match, my hands were shaking a little bit. I was thinking.. what tf.. are we actually going to do this?!
There is a right way and a wrong way to do difficult. This is the wrong way.

Dark souls in the 3rd person genre is how you do difficult. Where the player knows why he died and what he can do to improve.
Well, regular co-op is supposed to be a "casual mode" of Starcraft arcade-ish activities with some sort of progression mechanic and rewards. So it shouldn't be so hard that 200+ level players find it challenging. I mean it IS kinda repetitive anyway, once you beat it X amount of times against all enemy comps. It's meant to give a alternative just that..."casual" players.

They made mutations for the purpose of giving an extra challenge to those who've past this stage. And as for this week's mutation's difficulty, I think it's great that Blizzard is presenting a challenge that requires you to find the right commander combo, coordinated teammate, timing, active targeting, etc. in order to beat it without cheese tactics. The proof shows that it CAN be done by various players. Just because not every Brutal mutation player has the skills with the right commanders or whatever can't beat it in a week, doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. It's up to you whether you wish to devote the time, effort, etc. to train these different skills with various commanders and make online gamer friends, or whatever. Once you make every brutal mutation "100% beatable by the vast majority...of Brutal Mutation afficionados", then we'll be back to the topic of whether Brutal is actually Brutal, right?
Actually this mutation difficulty would be fine with me for another difficulty level. Just get rid off the silence and annoying bugs and it’s much more doable. These hero waves themselves I don’t reallly mind, they fun.
However that difficulty level SHOULD be doable for each commander, hero waves are fine, they gotta scale down the timing though. Not really that viable holds for some commanders

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