raven is devouring tvt build variety

General Discussion
05/10/2019 10:17 PMPosted by AdMech
I think tEhbAtZ is referring to the period of Byun's reign about 3 years ago.

It's a good thing you post here. You alone have tripled the average IQ on these boards.
you don't even wanna know how long zvz has been ling bling into roach for 20 minutes....
05/11/2019 02:31 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
It's a good thing you post here. You alone have tripled the average IQ on these boards.


Dude wants to nerf widow mines, libs and ghosts to make mech viable (???) high IQ or just that you agree with nerfing terran? big shock.
05/11/2019 02:57 PMPosted by BassHabit
you don't even wanna know how long zvz has been ling bling into roach for 20 minutes....


I'm not sure I understand why one statement invalidates the other.

The thing is, you can change the raven without impacting the other match ups too much, since it's basically not ever seen (with exception of disable matrix timing push). You can't really affect lings and banes without completely destroying Zerg in both ZVP and ZVT.

I'd like to see it, to be honest, I never really watch pro level ZVZ because of that, but it's a problem that would require a deep change in the game and I don't that it it can be fixed.
Eh, it's a worthwhile trade off for having the Raven be actually useful in TvP.

The Raven is just one of those units that is always going to be stronger in the mirror match up than in the non-mirrors.
05/11/2019 04:09 PMPosted by Vindicare
Eh, it's a worthwhile trade off for having the Raven be actually useful in TvP.

The Raven is just one of those units that is always going to be stronger in the mirror match up than in the non-mirrors.

That's why i said that whineterrans hate Protoss more than love themselves.....
I like their Raven up their as.s..e.ss.
They deseve it and maybe even enjoy it......
What if they swapped ghost emp for raven interference matrix?
No, it's just more important that a unit be good in the other two match ups over the mirror because the mirror is going to be balanced no matter what.

Making a unit useless in TvP because of how good it is in TvT doesn't make sense.
05/11/2019 08:08 PMPosted by ZXOmegaXZ
What if they swapped ghost emp for raven interference matrix?


Massive nerfs to both units.
05/11/2019 03:06 PMPosted by thrasher
05/11/2019 02:31 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
It's a good thing you post here. You alone have tripled the average IQ on these boards.


Dude wants to nerf widow mines, libs and ghosts to make mech viable (???) high IQ or just that you agree with nerfing terran? big shock.


Just my opinion. You don't have to agree with it.

And it isn't to make mech viable, but I see Zerg struggling against Widow Mines, Liberators and Ghost composition. Of course, I could be biased, but I feel like the Ghost basically counters everything in the Zerg arsenal except Tier 1 units like Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches, Ravagers and perhaps Hydralisks.
05/11/2019 10:22 PMPosted by AdMech
05/11/2019 03:06 PMPosted by thrasher
...

Dude wants to nerf widow mines, libs and ghosts to make mech viable (???) high IQ or just that you agree with nerfing terran? big shock.


Just my opinion. You don't have to agree with it.

And it isn't to make mech viable, but I see Zerg struggling against Widow Mines, Liberators and Ghost composition. Of course, I could be biased, but I feel like the Ghost basically counters everything in the Zerg arsenal except Tier 1 units like Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches, Ravagers and perhaps Hydralisks.


There is always something that most zergs are going to struggle against, and there is always something that most terrans are going to struggle against, eventually over time the races start to optimize their strategies and the balance changes in their favor. Blizzard should really only interfere if there is significant imbalance for long stretches of time, like when winrates start going past 55% for more than 3 months.

Broodwar's winrates have been fluctuating constantly with no interference from blizzard for years.
Of course you have a valid point, and I also think we should wait and see if the trend continues for long. I do like Blizzard actively taking part and changing stuff up - it does keep the meta fresh once in a while. Do you remember just a few years back where machine gun Cyclone was the rage? Now it's reworked back to its original form. I do like some of the changes, but sometimes I feel a bit concerned when there's a lopsided representation in the GSL. I understand that GSL doesn't represent balance as a whole, but I am only human and I will admit to being biased and irrational sometimes.
05/11/2019 10:45 PMPosted by AdMech
Of course you have a valid point, and I also think we should wait and see if the trend continues for long. I do like Blizzard actively taking part and changing stuff up - it does keep the meta fresh once in a while. Do you remember just a few years back where machine gun Cyclone was the rage? Now it's reworked back to its original form. I do like some of the changes, but sometimes I feel a bit concerned when there's a lopsided representation in the GSL. I understand that GSL doesn't represent balance as a whole, but I am only human and I will admit to being biased and irrational sometimes.


I actually think its the opposite, blizzard not touching the game keeps the meta fresh because it forces races to use new strategies and new units instead of just waiting until the standard comp gets buffed back to viability again.

Some examples I can think of:
PvZ back when infestor/broodlord was overpowered resulted in the usage of the mothership for archon toilets, and made Protoss start experimenting with immortals to end the matchup before it got to that point.

PvT during WoL, after terrans figured out how to deal with forcefields in the early/mid game Protoss responded by optimizing build orders to get colossi out faster.

PvT, stargate openings during beta LOTV were a direct response to cyclones being incredibly broken early/midgame, and phoenixes started getting used to deal with them

PvZ stargate after forge openings were a direct response to mutalisks dominating the matchup during HOTS.

Its possible that the over-usage of bio in TvP/Z is because terrans can always rely on blizzard to buff bio if they start doing bad in the matchup instead of trying to make mech builds work.
05/11/2019 10:32 PMPosted by Shonix
Broodwar's winrates have been fluctuating constantly with no interference from blizzard for years.

To be fair:
- Brood War's engine limitations make it much harder to "abuse" exceptionally strong units.
- Brood War's engine limitations make very large armies relatively weaker and harder to manage (with the exception of air units, most units end up attacking in waves where only a fraction of units are fighting at any given point).
- The base units are closely balanced against each-other for the most part.
- There are particularly strong sources of splash damage and spells (Tanks, Spider Mines, Valkyries, EMP, Irradiate, Lockdown, Nuke, Plague, Dark Swarm, Ensnare, Spawn Broodlings, Lurkers, Reavers, Storms, Stasis Field, Recall, Disruption Web, Maelstrom, Mind Control, etc) that can quickly shift the balance of the game back and forth; so even if there was a more serious imbalance they can create a level playing field.

Basically, any problems with balance are a bigger deal in StarCraft II; although arguably most of the issues that exist now can be overcome with meta or composition changes.
05/11/2019 02:57 PMPosted by BassHabit
you don't even wanna know how long zvz has been ling bling into roach for 20 minutes....


Difference being you cannot change roach or ling/bling without affecting other match up too much, on the other hand Raven are gamebreaking in everything they do. Interference matrix just disabled all of my BC's with like 2-3 ravens, how dumb of a design is that even ?

Or in TvP where you can disable 4 collosus without the protoss having any counter play to this but having a feedback available. Not even mentionning the fact the collosi are going to suicide right on top of the terran army
05/11/2019 03:06 PMPosted by thrasher
05/11/2019 02:31 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
It's a good thing you post here. You alone have tripled the average IQ on these boards.


Dude wants to nerf widow mines, libs and ghosts to make mech viable (???) high IQ or just that you agree with nerfing terran? big shock.

Says the conspiracy nut who thinks I am slammer:

http://sc2unmasked.com/Search?q=Slammer

http://sc2unmasked.com/Search?q=tehbatz
Just a coincidence that you both beat Parting with the same build yet only one made a forum post about it and only bragged a year after the fact? XD post the replay and I will praise Zeus.
05/12/2019 04:39 PMPosted by thrasher
Just a coincidence that you both beat Parting with the same build

Where did you get that? I specifically said I faced vs a cannon rush. Slammer faced against proxy robo and won through sheer luck - just watch his replay.

The variant parting used against me is when the pylon is scouted and killed- they bank up a bunch and then drop 50000 buildings in 1 second right before the hatch finishes. He died to a proxy hatch ravager. His probe didn't see my scouting drone leave at 12. It's smart because it's a free win vs cannon rushes and proxy robo, and if no cannon rush you just scout like normal. Vs a 2 gate adept build you can build a hatch and block his natural which forces him to either commit to 1 base play or to make stalkers from his gateways. Either way his build is wrecked.

Hidden drone scouting is a very good strategy vs the current protoss meta and I drone scout in almost every ZvP as a result. That's how I had a 90% win-rate vs Protoss last season.

You are in essence leaping to the conclusion that I am slammer, even though SC2unmasked says slammer is some guy called "instinct", and you do this because we've both beaten PartingG? PartinG plays THOUSANDS of games and losses ~30% of them, meaning there are HUNDREDS of people who have beaten PartinG. By your same reasoning I have hundreds of smurf accounts. Like I said, you're a conspiracy theorist nut and you really shouldn't be criticizing AdMech - he is at least 10x your IQ.
05/06/2019 01:54 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
You've beaten PartinG's cannon rush with 3 hatch before pool?
05/12/2019 05:52 PMPosted by thrasher
05/06/2019 01:54 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
You've beaten PartinG's cannon rush with 3 hatch before pool?

Am I missing something here?

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