Need unit vability suggestions for Protoss

General Discussion
05/09/2019 12:26 PMPosted by NinjaDuckBob
Changes for the sake of having the same number of changes per race is a very poor approach to balancing the game.


That was never my approach. Even after I explained everything in the thread.

I was looking to see what the community had for idea's to improve some of the lesser seen or used Protoss units.

Then you got mad for me not showing all of the changes in the Mod, even when I said that I will after the rest of the Protoss changes were done.
05/09/2019 08:58 PMPosted by MyOhMind
05/09/2019 12:26 PMPosted by NinjaDuckBob
Changes for the sake of having the same number of changes per race is a very poor approach to balancing the game.


That was never my approach. Even after I explained everything in the thread.

I was looking to see what the community had for idea's to improve some of the lesser seen or used Protoss units.

Then you got mad for me not showing all of the changes in the Mod, even when I said that I will after the rest of the Protoss changes were done.


Now you understand what it's like to try and make something for a community. You ask for feedback and mostly you get people thinking they are entitled and some whining/push back.

Don't try to please everyone it's impossible. Ignore the negative whiners. It's best to only take serious feedback seriously.
05/09/2019 06:08 PMPosted by llllllllllll

So you're not objectively balancing the game...my point exactly. Buffing Protoss to avoid backlash means you're making arbitrary buffs to appease the community; how does that result in "better game balance"?


Actually yes I am objectively balancing the game. When I was looking over the Voidray change, I noticed that a few other things in Protoss could be improved.

It wasn't about making the changes "equal", it was about giving all 3 races more viable options.

What does "making ZvT Lurkers more viable" even mean? Again, it sounds like you just take certain complaints from the board and buff that unit so that it becomes "viable" without really considering what else it breaks.


Making ZvT Lurkers viable means making a small number of indirect and one direct change to promote Lurkers as a viable option in ZvT against different Terran unit compositions.

The Zerg changes do not break anything, neither do the Terran changes or Protoss changes.

Buffing Voidrays in any manner will have massive effects on PvP.


The Voidray change actually does not have "massive effects on PvP" since it just makes the Voidray look and feel better without making it OP at all.

Just because a unit exists does not mean it should be "viable" (whatever your definition of that is); there are plenty of marginal units that don't get used or are under-used; you can't just have 100 different units all be "viable" because the game becomes a complete dice roll at that point.


You are making an excuse for terrible track records of unit design and balance not being fixed when they could be fixed.

More viable units = more compositions, play styles and player choices.

It just depends on what the positive changes are to make them more viable, not too strong.

Have you ever considered the idea that maybe fielding 50 Lurkers is not a good thing? Lurker is a support unit, a player who produces a million of them SHOULD be punished. Buffing everything isn't the answer to "better game balance."


Where am I saying that people should be making 50 Lurkers?. Where have I said Lurkers were massively buffed?.

You are starting to crack.


All you did was "make the Voidray look and feel better"?? If you would just list out your modifications people could actually critique them, but you refuse for some reason. In any case, I can almost guarantee any buff you gave to Voidrays would make them OP; there is already an extremely fine line with Voidrays regarding balance. You still seem to be missing my point; "more play-styles and viable units" is not always a good thing, because that means you break other areas of the game; your thinking is completely one dimensional, you only think about attacking options for each race. If you buff or create a playstyle, it can completely break or remove other playstyles from the game; you seem to think creating 100 OP units for every race will result in some kind of play-style utopia where everything is wonderful. You fail to understand how difficult it is to allow multiple playstyles to exist in this game between all three races. in balance/harmony; as soon as this delicate balance is broken, one playstyle will emerge as the META; the most effective tactic available. At the moment, Blizzard has managed to allow many playstyles to exist for the most part, and for that the current game state should be celebrated. It appears your MOD is really just buffs for mech, a playstyle you like and want to buff lol. Enhancing game balance at this point is about things like reducing the likelihood of Phoenix v Phoenix wars or Roach v Roach.
All you did was "make the Voidray look and feel better"?? If you would just list out your modifications people could actually critique them, but you refuse for some reason..

I have stated multiple times that the reason why the changes are not listed out is because I still need to finish the Protoss changes.

Also if you even bothered to read what I was saying, I even told you what I did to the Voidray.

05/09/2019 10:13 PMPosted by llllllllllll
In any case, I can almost guarantee any buff you gave to Voidrays would make them OP; there is already an extremely fine line with Voidrays regarding balance.

Turns out the buff I gave them has not made them OP, it's actually make them really fun to control similar to the BC.

You still seem to be missing my point; "more play-styles and viable units" is not always a good thing, because that means you break other areas of the game; your thinking is completely one dimensional, you only think about attacking options for each race. If you buff or create a playstyle, it can completely break or remove other playstyles from the game; you seem to think creating 100 OP units for every race will result in some kind of play-style utopia where everything is wonderful. You fail to understand how difficult it is to allow multiple playstyles to exist in this game between all three races. in balance/harmony; as soon as this delicate balance is broken, one playstyle will emerge as the META; the most effective tactic available.

Well it's a good thing that all the changes that I did in the Mod don't break anything(made damn well sure of that) and actually do what they say when it comes to significantly improving the viability.

It appears your MOD is really just buffs for mech, a playstyle you like and want to buff lol.


That is not true at all, since the changes target TvP Mech viability and greatly improve it. The mod has some very specific changes to make ZvT Lurkers viable and it's going to have several good Protoss changes that will help with unit viability such as the Voidray.
05/09/2019 09:14 PMPosted by Lfod
Now you understand what it's like to try and make something for a community. You ask for feedback and mostly you get people thinking they are entitled and some whining/push back.

Don't try to please everyone it's impossible. Ignore the negative whiners. It's best to only take serious feedback seriously.


What I've noticed is that so many of them expect you to either nerf the race(s) they play or overbuff the race(s) they hate.

Since my mod Better Game Balance doesn't do either of those and instead does a handful positive buffs to each race to improve viability of either playstyles or units in different match ups, they don't know how to respond so I get attacked.

I asked very simply to the community: "How would you buff and improve under-used Protoss units?".

Got very few suggestions, which was so disappointing since the Voidray change in the Mod came from the community and made the unit so fun to use along with being more viable but not in a broken way.

The reason why I want people to check out the Better Game Balance Mod so much is because of how the changes have all done what they are supposed to without causing any imbalance. The changes have added so much viability when it comes to playstyle and unit choice without requiring dozens of changes.
The reason Lurkers aren't seen often in tvz is because zerg lost dark swarm which was used to reduce the effectiveness terrans ranged units.

Has anyone other than mind ever played his mod? I get the feeling it only feels balance to him because no one with significant amount of skill and gameplay knowledge has played his mod.
05/09/2019 11:05 PMPosted by ZXOmegaXZ
Has anyone other than mind ever played his mod? I get the feeling it only feels balance to him because no one with significant amount of skill and gameplay knowledge has played his mod.

I have had and have Masters players playing it and even some GM's. Also I am M/GM(depends on the season) on EU and KR myself.

The biggest feedback I have had recently was from Protoss players asking when they will get some changes in the Mod since the Terran changes made TvP more exciting and the Zerg changes made ZvT more exciting.

I encourage all skill levels to play the Mod.
05/09/2019 11:05 PMPosted by ZXOmegaXZ
The reason Lurkers aren't seen often in tvz is because zerg lost dark swarm which was used to reduce the effectiveness terrans ranged units.


Zerg gained blinding cloud.
05/09/2019 11:17 PMPosted by MyOhMind
05/09/2019 11:05 PMPosted by ZXOmegaXZ
The reason Lurkers aren't seen often in tvz is because zerg lost dark swarm which was used to reduce the effectiveness terrans ranged units.


Zerg gained blinding cloud.


Blinding cloud is an offensive version of dark swarm. Which doesn't benefit lurkers like dark swarm did.
05/09/2019 11:32 PMPosted by ZXOmegaXZ
05/09/2019 11:17 PMPosted by MyOhMind
...

Zerg gained blinding cloud.


Blinding cloud is an offensive version of dark swarm. Which doesn't benefit lurkers like dark swarm did.

It does against ground units trying to attack the lurkers or shoot them moving in.
05/09/2019 11:10 PMPosted by MyOhMind
I have had and have Masters players playing it and even some GM's. Also I am M/GM(depends on the season) on EU and KR myself.

The biggest feedback I have had recently was from Protoss players asking when they will get some changes in the Mod since the Terran changes made TvP more exciting and the Zerg changes made ZvT more exciting.

I encourage all skill levels to play the Mod.
If you want something to impact a large enough number of people, you need to make videos or at least link to some replays. This is why I made a video for my version of the Disruptor. Yes, that did not gain much traction, but in terms of people taking an honest look (judging by views on the video) and on Reddit it gained much more traction than it would have with no video.

It's great to make a mod, but making others play the mod before even listing the specific changes and then trying to get the ones who haven't played it yet to take your word for there having been games played on it without providing replays is not going to help you much.
05/10/2019 06:59 AMPosted by NinjaDuckBob
It's great to make a mod, but making others play the mod before even listing the specific changes and then trying to get the ones who haven't played it yet to take your word for there having been games played on it without providing replays is not going to help you much.

Want me to list all of the changes?. Help me get the Protoss changes done first.

Want to help me get some recent replays?. Help me set up some playtests or events with it.

That's the situation I'm in right now. I want to put out a fully finished product and show people it to get them them playing it.

I wish people on the forums(such as yourself) would add me in game so I could set up games between you guys so you could see for yourself instead of just going into an AI lobby.
05/10/2019 07:28 AMPosted by MyOhMind
Want me to list all of the changes?. Help me get the Protoss changes done first.

Want to help me get some recent replays?. Help me set up some playtests or events with it.
I've given you my suggestions already. Regardless, while there is nothing wrong with asking for help, going public with that while being cryptic about the currently existing changes is a poor approach if your goal is to get people to help you. Also you never did post the previous replays.

05/10/2019 07:28 AMPosted by MyOhMind
That's the situation I'm in right now. I want to put out a fully finished product and show people it to get them them playing it.

I wish people on the forums(such as yourself) would add me in game so I could set up games between you guys so you could see for yourself instead of just going into an AI lobby.
If you want help from people to create a finished product, you need to be more transparent with the people you're trying to get to help you. You can explain it's a work in progress without being cryptic.

Feel free to add me, NinjaDuckBob #936. If we're online at the same time then shoot me a message and if I'm not busy with other friends I'll play some test matches with you.
05/10/2019 07:28 AMPosted by MyOhMind
05/10/2019 06:59 AMPosted by NinjaDuckBob
It's great to make a mod, but making others play the mod before even listing the specific changes and then trying to get the ones who haven't played it yet to take your word for there having been games played on it without providing replays is not going to help you much.

Want me to list all of the changes?. Help me get the Protoss changes done first.

Want to help me get some recent replays?. Help me set up some playtests or events with it.

That's the situation I'm in right now. I want to put out a fully finished product and show people it to get them them playing it.

I wish people on the forums(such as yourself) would add me in game so I could set up games between you guys so you could see for yourself instead of just going into an AI lobby.


No one will ever try a mod without the changes listed; I’m not blindly playing a version of the game and going by “feel”; it is next to impossible to notice subtle changes. Second, all you have done is buff mech, why would that interest anyone in the community who isn’t a mech player; I’m not playing PvT against a T with an invisible list of buffs. Your guiding philosophy is make mech and an handful of units “viable”, which for some reason you think makes the game better. Why should Lurkers or Voidrays be made more “viable”; these are noob units with no skill. The only thing we need at this point is very minor adjustments to address play issues like Phoenix vs Phoenix. You claim to confirm these balance these changes don’t break the game; please explain to me how you did that with the Voidray? Did you test every Voidray build (battery rush, proxy rush, defensive expand, late game massing, etc)? I doubt it, and you need many high level players testing for months to draw any conclusions; and stop claiming you’re GM!!!!
I've given you my suggestions already. Regardless, while there is nothing wrong with asking for help, going public with that while being cryptic about the currently existing changes is a poor approach if your goal is to get people to help you. Also you never did post the previous replays. If you want help from people to create a finished product, you need to be more transparent with the people you're trying to get to help you. You can explain it's a work in progress without being cryptic.

I agree I should have been less cryptic about it. I even dropped some hints about the changes but should have been more direct.

Feel free to add me, NinjaDuckBob #936. If we're online at the same time then shoot me a message and if I'm not busy with other friends I'll play some test matches with you.


Added
05/10/2019 07:46 AMPosted by llllllllllll

No one will ever try a mod without the changes listed; I’m not blindly playing a version of the game and going by “feel”; it is next to impossible to notice subtle changes.


That is a fair criticism since several of the changes are subtle.

Second, all you have done is buff mech, why would that interest anyone in the community who isn’t a mech player; I’m not playing PvT against a T with an invisible list of buffs.


TvP Mech has been buffed specifically. Also TvP is a match up that desperately needs composition variety instead of Bio all the time which everyone agrees.

Your guiding philosophy is make mech and an handful of units “viable”, which for some reason you think makes the game better.


TvP Mech being viable improves composition choice and gameplay variety in that match up. Lurkers being more viable in TvZ increases composition variety and adds a new strategic element that shakes up TvZ for the better.

Voidrays being more viable in TVP as a composition unit gives them a role in the match up while also making the unit more fun to use in general. The other Protoss changes will do similar positive improvements.

Why should Lurkers or Voidrays be made more “viable”; these are noob units with no skill.


Lurkers do take skill since they are by nature a positional siege unit.

Voidrays after the change in the Mod reward skill to use.

You claim to confirm these balance these changes don’t break the game; please explain to me how you did that with the Voidray? Did you test every Voidray build (battery rush, proxy rush, defensive expand, late game massing, etc)?


Yes we did. Voidrays are still Voidrays, but they look and feel like what Voidrays should be.

I doubt it, and you need many high level players testing for months to draw any conclusions


Already have that, which is why they were so interested in seeing the changes Protoss will get.
Ok so as an actual masters player who actually plays this game and even experiments with lurkers, I should go over some of the other reasons why lurkers are horrible vs terran.

So first off what everyone else mentioned is true, especially tanks and libs hard countering them with much much better range.

They also cost mountains of gas. Like youre either going to be filling 30-40 supply with lings because you have no gas after making lurkers, or you'll need to have like 7 bases of gas mining.

Because they also need massive amounts of support units. Specifically, you need enough aa to handle libs and some way of dealing with tanks, either broods or swarm hosts if you cant afford broods or dont have time. But either way its another mountain of gas.

All of that eats up your supply to the point where you cant defend counter attacks because your army is one slow giant deathball. Its like congrats now you counter bio and hellions if they decide to walk into your lurkers. You could've just made some ultras or infestors and done the same thing for a fraction of the cost and supply. Meanwhile the bio is boosting around your army and into your main.

If all you did was force scans from terran more, lurkers will still be trash in zvt. But I find it hilarious and revealing that you think simply taxing orbital energy a bit more would magically make lurkers viable. xD

M/GM my !@# lol youre clearly a twitch chat GM at best.
05/10/2019 11:21 AMPosted by Ace

If all you did was force scans from terran more, lurkers will still be trash in zvt. But I find it hilarious and revealing that you think simply taxing orbital energy a bit more would magically make lurkers viable. xD

The ZvT Lurker changes do 3 primary things, far greater then "taxing orbital energy":

1) Force more scans by making burrow play more used and seen in ZvT.

Less Scans = longer Lurkers stay alive.

2) Deny scans by encouraging more contaminate usage in general.

No Scans = longer Lurkers stay alive.

3) Making Lurkers be a little better and more consistent against Marines making them a competitive option against different compositions.

More competitive Lurkers = More Lurker usage against different threats.


You would be very surprised at how well all 3 of the changes work together to make Lurkers viable in ZvT. Some of the more proactive players are able to force Terran to have to build Ravens to deal with the Lurkers since the scans are either being denied or used up from trying to deal with the lurkers, burrowed banelings, tunnel claw roaches and even zerglings around the map.

05/10/2019 11:21 AMPosted by Ace

M/GM my !@# lol youre clearly a twitch chat GM at best.


I don't waste my time with 4v4's all day. So I do pretty well on the EU and KR. Low masters isn't a big leap from Diamond, now mid-high masters on the other hand is very different since you will face GM's. Something you should know if you are an actual "masters player".
05/09/2019 11:10 PMPosted by MyOhMind
05/09/2019 11:05 PMPosted by ZXOmegaXZ
Has anyone other than mind ever played his mod? I get the feeling it only feels balance to him because no one with significant amount of skill and gameplay knowledge has played his mod.

I have had and have Masters players playing it and even some GM's. Also I am M/GM(depends on the season) on EU and KR myself.

The biggest feedback I have had recently was from Protoss players asking when they will get some changes in the Mod since the Terran changes made TvP more exciting and the Zerg changes made ZvT more exciting.

I encourage all skill levels to play the Mod.
so you are gm in eu... there are only 3 real gm random players in eu, its: Beastyqt, Alex007, Xpander, which of them are you? or maybe you will finally show us your profile, so that we could be sure that you are at least platinum and that balance of sc2 is in the right hands?
05/10/2019 02:42 PMPosted by Farbros
05/09/2019 11:10 PMPosted by MyOhMind
...
I have had and have Masters players playing it and even some GM's. Also I am M/GM(depends on the season) on EU and KR myself.

The biggest feedback I have had recently was from Protoss players asking when they will get some changes in the Mod since the Terran changes made TvP more exciting and the Zerg changes made ZvT more exciting.

I encourage all skill levels to play the Mod.
so you are gm in eu... there are only 3 real gm random players in eu, its: Beastyqt, Alex007, Xpander, which of them are you? or maybe you will finally show us your profile, so that we could be sure that you are at least platinum and that balance of sc2 is in the right hands?

I'm neither of those 3. I said that I'm usually high masters, have been GM occasionally over the years. Also I do not play Random, I just play whatever race I'm in the mood for.

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