When units counter their counter

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05/26/2019 06:29 PMPosted by CodeCracker
losing the game is BAD GAME DESIGN

Nope. A strategy that is fair will lose half the time. I guarantee you that 99 times out of 100 the corruptors will lose that fight even though corruptors are supposed to counter armored air units. Losing 50% of the time is literally part of the definition of fairness.
05/26/2019 03:23 PMPosted by AdMech
That's why Vipers and Infestors exist, people.

Dark versus Gumiho shows how Zerg can defeat mass Battlecruisers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAfhUErk5l8


Infestors yes, but vipers suck against BCs.
05/26/2019 05:45 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
Scan + yamato says hello at 10 range (aka zero risk to kill units for free).

But yamato requires 3 seconds charge time to shoot. Viper's abduct has 9 range, and the 1 range difference only needs about 0.35 seconds to fly. After abducted, yamato is cancelled.
Infestor's fungal growth has 10 range and can prevent tactical jump, and neural parasite (9 range) also take control one BC directly, which could yamato each other and jump to top of spores and corruptors.
05/26/2019 06:37 PMPosted by jedi
05/26/2019 05:45 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
Scan + yamato says hello at 10 range (aka zero risk to kill units for free).

But yamato requires 3 seconds charge time to shoot. Viper's abduct has 9 range, and the 1 range difference only needs about 0.35 seconds to fly. After abducted, yamato is cancelled.
Infestor's fungal growth has 10 range and can prevent tactical jump, and neural parasite (9 range) also take control one BC directly, which could yamato each other and jump to top of spores and corruptors.


https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Ghost_(Legacy_of_the_Void)

EMP range with splash radius is 11.5. The terran is ahead at every stage of the micro thanks to having longer-ranged abilities and thanks to scans and sensor towers he has way better map vision too. If you move in with vipers, they get locked by yamato before they abduct so they are 100% committed and then ghosts take out their energy before they are able to abduct so you literally just threw units away for free.
ITT batz doesn't understand what a supply advantage is.

Turns out, if your opponent has significantly more supply and resources invested into an army and takes an engagement well, they can overcome your counter through sheer weight of army value.
05/26/2019 06:33 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
Nope. A strategy that is fair will lose half the time.


only if the players are evenly skilled, which they arent, in this case.
Corruptors dont exactly counter BCs or Carriers, its Vipers + Corruptors that counter massive that counter those units, Vipers also counter non-massive air units pretty dang good with the bomb ability.
05/26/2019 06:51 PMPosted by Kelthar
ITT batz doesn't understand what a supply advantage is.

Turns out, if your opponent has significantly more supply and resources invested into an army and takes an engagement well, they can overcome your counter through sheer weight of army value.

I understand that fully. What you don't understand was my rebuttal, which hard-counters that point:

05/26/2019 04:47 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
05/26/2019 04:29 PMPosted by TerranicII
The Battlecruisers outnumbered the Corruptors by a 70% of their supply

So you are saying we need to nerf mules by making them cost 1 supply each and reduce queens to 1 supply? Sounds good. Lets do it.


You can't criticize me for "being down in supply" when we are both maxed. It's impossible to get a bigger army. In that scenario, terran is guaranteed to have higher army supply because of mules.

05/26/2019 07:14 PMPosted by CodeCracker
05/26/2019 06:33 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
Nope. A strategy that is fair will lose half the time.


only if the players are evenly skilled, which they arent, in this case.

Because spamming y-click is so very hard. There isn't any potential for a more-skilled player to outplay someone else with a unit like the BC. The micro was "teleport, spam y-click, win" and that's it.
05/26/2019 05:13 PMPosted by LittleSmall
05/26/2019 03:33 PMPosted by Gooba
...
It's not only the first collision. You have to take into account what happens next. How fast can a Terran replace 10 BC and a Zerg 25 Corruptors?
Protoss has an easier time because if resources exist we can morph immediately 10 Archons.......


Also a good point, but terrans could also make vikings which are faster to produce and fare better vs corruptors

VIkings actually lose to Corruptors once counts get high enough.
05/26/2019 07:31 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
05/26/2019 06:51 PMPosted by Kelthar
ITT batz doesn't understand what a supply advantage is.

Turns out, if your opponent has significantly more supply and resources invested into an army and takes an engagement well, they can overcome your counter through sheer weight of army value.

I understand that fully. What you don't understand was my rebuttal, which hard-counters that point:

05/26/2019 04:47 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
...
So you are saying we need to nerf mules by making them cost 1 supply each and reduce queens to 1 supply? Sounds good. Lets do it.


05/26/2019 07:14 PMPosted by CodeCracker
...

only if the players are evenly skilled, which they arent, in this case.

Because spamming y-click is so very hard. There isn't any potential for a more-skilled player to outplay someone else with a unit like the BC. The micro was "teleport, spam y-click, win" and that's it.


As you are so fond of saying, garbage arguments belong in the garbage. Come back when you have a real argument.
05/26/2019 08:40 PMPosted by Kelthar
As you are so fond of saying, garbage arguments belong in the garbage. Come back when you have a real argument.

That's not what I say - try again.
I mentioned Vipers because someone was asking about Corruptors versus Void Rays and Fleet Carriers (I think?).

I'm not sure what making Infestors or Vipers have to do with charnel or creating a forest of spore crawlers or dragging it out. In that specific scenario, he was teleporting his Battlecruisers right on top of your Corruptors. If you had a bunch of Infestors, you could neural parasite his Battlecruisers and yamato the others while your Corruptors (and maybe Infested Terrans) shoot them. Not only that, your opponent has a Raven to support his Battlecruisers while you had no support unit for your Corruptors, not even a single Viper or a single Infestor.

You complain about Y+click being so ridiculously easy - then how hard is it to use N+click (I believe N is for neural parasite)? Even if you don't use Yamato, you can easily turn half the Battlecruisers against each other and make the rest vulnerable to the Corruptors.
I've never seen a thread where the OP's argument is so completely stupid that even a two year old could point it out. That's saying something because there's a lot of stupid on these forums.
05/26/2019 09:38 PMPosted by Miro
I've never seen a thread where the OP's argument is so completely stupid that even a two year old could point it out. That's saying something because there's a lot of stupid on these forums.


Sorry for being one of the "a lot of stupid."
05/26/2019 09:39 PMPosted by AdMech
05/26/2019 09:38 PMPosted by Miro
I've never seen a thread where the OP's argument is so completely stupid that even a two year old could point it out. That's saying something because there's a lot of stupid on these forums.


Sorry for being one of the "a lot of stupid."


Hah, nah you're fine. I've been here since early/mid 2012 so I've seen a fair bit.
05/26/2019 09:38 PMPosted by Miro
I've never seen a thread where the OP's argument is so completely stupid that even a two year old could point it out. That's saying something because there's a lot of stupid on these forums.

https://i.imgur.com/1i2lgwj.png

"I am right because I think a 2 year old would side with me, but I refuse to actually say how I am right" isn't an argument. Either develop your argument, logically and factually, or don't post. It's a shame that I even need to point that out.
05/26/2019 04:47 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
05/26/2019 04:29 PMPosted by TerranicII
The Battlecruisers outnumbered the Corruptors by a 70% of their supply

So you are saying we need to nerf mules by making them cost 1 supply each and reduce queens to 1 supply? Sounds good. Lets do it.

Yes, buff the race that has by far the strongest economy and also buff their early game defence which comes from effectively their production structure.
05/26/2019 11:11 PMPosted by WireBender
05/26/2019 04:47 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
...
So you are saying we need to nerf mules by making them cost 1 supply each and reduce queens to 1 supply? Sounds good. Lets do it.

Yes, buff the race that has by far the strongest economy and also buff their early game defence which comes from effectively their production structure.

Oh ok so the mule is not the problem time to nerf the bc.
05/26/2019 09:52 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
05/26/2019 09:38 PMPosted by Miro
I've never seen a thread where the OP's argument is so completely stupid that even a two year old could point it out. That's saying something because there's a lot of stupid on these forums.

https://i.imgur.com/1i2lgwj.png

"I am right because I think a 2 year old would side with me, but I refuse to actually say how I am right" isn't an argument. Either develop your argument, logically and factually, or don't post. It's a shame that I even need to point that out.


I shouldn't need to, given how it has already been pointed out to you numerous times through this thread already.

1) Anti-armour missile hit every single one of your corruptors, which means that BC's have a massive increase in DPS on them.
2) He had a supply lead as well as an army cost lead, and you had no way of preventing their yamato from going off. There was no neural parasite to grab them and force them to yamato each other (and there would have been time to do so). There was no abduct to displace them, nothing. Not to mention, forcing them to yamato infestors means that they wouldn't have been able to use it on corruptors, which in turn means more corruptors are alive to kill off the BCs.
3) Because his yamato (which takes around 3 seconds to activate) goes off, your supply of corruptors is reduced to be nearly a 1:1 ratio further increasing the gap in the cost and supply differential.

There was absolutely no logical way for you to win that fight, and there was never going to be because you didn't have the tools necessary to do so, available.
Battlecruisers are Starport + Fusion Core tech, high up the tech tree of Terran and takes forever to build. Moreover, you can only build 1 at a time per Starport. Assuming you're at late game, you probably only have 4-5 Starports producing units that cost 400/300 that require a lot of time to build.

Corruptors are Lair + Spire tech, you don't even need Hive + Greater Spire to build them, and you can produce a massive number of them at once with your multiple Hatcheries and larvae as long as you have the resources.

Mules or Queens have absolutely nothing to do with this, but I believe 45 Queens with Transfuse will easily beat Battlecruisers unless the latter use Yamato cannons to wipe out a good number of them. However, Queens are Spawning Pool and Hatchery tech, and you can immediately build Queens once Spawning Pool finishes and don't even need to research Transfuse, whereas Yamato cannon has to be researched in the Fusion Core after you finish building it. So I don't think this is a fair comparison.

Honestly, if you want to fight mass Battlecruisers, you can't just rely on mass Corruptors, you need support units like Infestors and maybe even Vipers (Parasitic Bomb might have been very useful here). Just like how your opponent had a single support unit in the form of a Raven, and he hit your clumped up Corruptors with a single Anti-Armor missile.

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