When units counter their counter

General Discussion
Prev 1 2 3 4 12 Next
05/26/2019 11:26 PMPosted by Miro
1) Anti-armour missile hit every single one of your corruptors, which means that BC's have a massive increase in DPS on them.

The battle was already lost at that point due to yamoto. It wasn't relevant.

05/26/2019 11:26 PMPosted by Miro
2) He had a supply lead as well as an army cost lead

Due to mules giving terran a higher army supply. I can't be held responsible for how the game is designed. It is not possible to get enough army supply to win that fight. I detailed the math quite clearly in the original post.

05/26/2019 11:26 PMPosted by Miro
There was no neural parasite to grab them and force them to yamato each other

This isn't bronze league. Infestors would be a waste of money unless I was planning on playing an hour long turtle game.

05/26/2019 11:26 PMPosted by Miro
There was no abduct to displace them, nothing.

It's worthless. Abduct yields no value in that situation. Abduct is a useful ability because you can force an opponent to fight. You grab his unit and force it to engage. That's what it does. I already had an engagement. He wasn't running away. You don't seem to understand what these units are supposed to do.

05/26/2019 11:26 PMPosted by Miro
Not to mention, forcing them to yamato infestors

I am not even going to respond to that.

05/26/2019 11:26 PMPosted by Miro
There was absolutely no logical way for you to win that fight

YES. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Corruptors are zerg's ONLY tool for dealing with this and they are now HARD COUNTERED by BCs. Because zerg has no way to directly counter the BCs, they have to be indirectly countered by turtling with spores and infestors and vipers for an hour-long game and that is BAD GAME DESIGN.
05/26/2019 11:16 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
05/26/2019 11:11 PMPosted by WireBender
...
Yes, buff the race that has by far the strongest economy and also buff their early game defence which comes from effectively their production structure.

Oh ok so the mule is not the problem time to nerf the bc.

No, it’s time to buff your skill. Zerg can only carry you so far before you have to actually get good at making units.
05/26/2019 11:48 PMPosted by WireBender
05/26/2019 11:16 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
...
Oh ok so the mule is not the problem time to nerf the bc.

No, it’s time to buff your skill. Zerg can only carry you so far before you have to actually get good at making units.

That's projection kiddo. You would have lost that fight so you think I misplayed. Your experience in gold league != my experience in grandmaster. It is ironically you who needs the buff in skill.
Due to mules giving terran a higher army supply. I can't be held responsible for how the game is designed. It is not possible to get enough army supply to win that fight. I detailed the math quite clearly in the original post.


Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realise that having 95 drones to 83 scvs meant that this became an IMBA MULE thread. Mules play little, if any, part in this

The battle was already lost at that point due to yamoto. It wasn't relevant.


Actually, it was completly relevant. Yes the battle was already lost, but it meant that what damage was done after was significantly increased, and the amount done to the BCs was mitigated much more due to the fact that they killed the remaining corruptors much faster. If they hadn't been under AAM, you would have killed off more BCs than you did, because the corruptors would have taken longer to die.

Posted by Miro
There was no neural parasite to grab them and force them to yamato each other

This isn't bronze league. Infestors would be a waste of money unless I was planning on playing an hour long turtle game.


Tell that to Serral who did that numerous times against Special in the WCS Spring finals against the exact same composition you were facing. Infestors would have been anything but a waste of money unless you didn't have NP in the first place to use it, which given what you're facing is a drastic oversight on your part.

https://youtu.be/IzXLWosZSus?t=1121

Edit: case in point, this video. Neural the BCs, force them to yamato each other, or the infestors and leaving your corruptors alive to annihilate the remaining BCs.

For you, this is even more important because he TP'd in, which meant that they had no way of getting out again.

It's worthless. Abduct yields no value in that situation. Abduct is a useful ability because you can force an opponent to fight. You grab his unit and force it to engage. That's what it does. I already had an engagement. He wasn't running away. You don't seem to understand what these units are supposed to do.


You're missing the point, and that's that you didn't have any spell casters to assist. Infestors particularly. As for abduct, I'm not certain but I think since it displaces units it can cancel/stun a charging yamato (if I'm wrong then I stand corrected). I'm well aware that it's used to displace and force an engagement primarily.

Alternatively, you could have used PB which, while it would have been average at best, would still have added some damage to the BCs to assist your corruptors and drawn fire from yamato (again, leaving more corruptors alive to kill off the BCs).

05/26/2019 11:42 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
YES. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Corruptors are zerg's ONLY tool for dealing with this and they are now HARD COUNTERED by BCs.


No, they're not . And that's just it. You're refusing to consider the possibility that - and say it with me here - You f*cked up.

BCs have always, ALWAYS, been able to do this to corruptors. There has been nothing that changed with BCs in recent times that allows them to beat corruptors. Previously, Yamato was 300 damage - it now does 240. Yes, they can move while firing, but corruptors are faster and can kite them across the map. BCs actually do LESS damage to air than they did before with both the nerf to yamato and the nerf to their air damage. There was no cost change, there was no HP or armour change, nothing.
05/27/2019 12:11 AMPosted by Miro
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realise that having 95 drones to 83 scvs meant that this became an IMBA MULE thread. Mules play little, if any, part in this

You have to factor in queens too. Terran is hugely advantaged in army supply in the late-game thanks to mules and queens. If you can't agree on the BASICS of TvZ late-game then there isn't anything to discuss here.

05/27/2019 12:11 AMPosted by Miro
Tell that to Serral who did that numerous times against Special in the WCS Spring

Serral also lost to mass bc vs gumiho. Serral beating Special had nothing to do with game design. Balance arguments go like this: If you have two players of roughly equal skill, then they should have roughly a 50% win-rate vs each other. If they do not, then the game is not balanced. Pointing out instances where the better player wins means you don't really understand this concept.

05/27/2019 12:11 AMPosted by Miro
Actually, it was completly relevant. Yes the battle was already lost

It's completely relevant, but the battle was already lost? I see. You should write a book: "How to contradict yourself in just two sentences for dummies".

05/27/2019 12:11 AMPosted by Miro
You're missing the point, and that's that you didn't have any spell casters to assist.

Because they would be worthless unless you are planning on playing an hour long turtle game as I stated. I am not going to play an hour long game just to win a game of starcraft. The battlecruiser is badly designed. It punishes trying to win the game, and that results in long turtle games that frankly aren't worth playing.

05/27/2019 12:11 AMPosted by Miro
No, they're not . And that's just it. You're refusing to consider the possibility that - and say it with me here - You f*cked up.

Oh I know I could have played better. It's just that none of your criticisms are even remotely on point. For example, I could have balled my corruptors to the side and kited and focus fired BCs. The problem is that it wouldn't have made a blasted bit of difference. I could play 1000000000000x better than my opponent and I would still lose that fight because BCs are too strong at the moment. But you go ahead and keep on crying about how you lose in gold league.

05/27/2019 12:11 AMPosted by Miro
BCs have always, ALWAYS, been able to do this to corruptors

Uh, no.
You have to factor in queens too. Terran is hugely advantaged in army supply in the late-game thanks to mules and queens. If you can't agree on the BASICS of TvZ late-game then there isn't anything to discuss here.


You had 8 supply of queens (4 queens), 95 drones and 180 supply in total to his 187 (at the start of the fight). You had enough supply left over that you could easily have thrown a few infestors in there. The queens were entirely irrelevant in this situation.

Serral also lost to mass bc vs gumiho.


Yes, he did. And he learned from his mistakes and applied what he learned next time he faced the composition.

The reality is you screwed up. There's no beating around the bush.
05/27/2019 12:38 AMPosted by Miro
The reality is you screwed up.

I made the unit that is supposed to counter bcs, and found out that the game design is so screwed up that they actually do not counter bcs. Yes, that is a mistake - a colossal mistake in game design.

Suppose you made banshees because your opponent made roaches and then SURPRISE the balance team had been doing drugs the night before and pushed out a patch that made one roach beat 15 banshees. "You are welcome" - balance team. "You should have made marines, any 2 year old would have known that." - Miro the forum whiner.
One Battlecruiser doesn't beat fifteen Corruptors, so your analogy is way off.

Also, Battlecruisers have always been able to do this to Corruptors. I know, because I'm the guy who masses Battlecruisers every chance I get. My opponent usually needs 3:1 ratio of Corruptors to my Battlecruisers to destroy my armada, and this was way before the patch.
I'd say it is more frustrating that in reality it is very likely no BC would die. They will just jump out when focused.
05/27/2019 01:01 AMPosted by MisterAL
I'd say it is more frustrating that in reality it is very likely no BC would die. They will just jump out when focused.

Yep. No missile turret support and an offensive tactical jump. You are NEVER going to get that good of an engagement in a real game scenario it didn't matter. Now try to beat this nonsense when the BCs are used properly.
05/27/2019 12:48 AMPosted by tEhbAtZ
I made the unit that is supposed to counter bcs


This isn't a vacuum. There are plenty of other factors that go into a game such as this. Upgrades (which we never actually see your upgrades, so for all we know they could have been 0/0 corruptors against 2/5 BCs), unit composition, map control (what's with your aversion to creep spread? Though that's not relevant in this fight), income, just to name a few things. This game isn't a game of rock-paper-scissors.

His army cost more than yours did, was worth more supply than yours was, and was able to significantly reduce the number of units that counter his own your army was able to effectively engage his, because you didn't make units that could stop him from doing that (infestors).

The fault lies solely with you, and not the balance team.

It's funny, you call me a whiner, yet this entire thread is merely another thread in a series of threads that show you to be a whiner. I don't think I have ever made a whine thread, so it's rich coming from you.
05/27/2019 01:05 AMPosted by Miro
This isn't a vacuum.

You are sure treating it like it is, though. "In a vacuum, you can use vipers to abduct" and "in a vacuum, you can neural parasite with infestors". There is no way either of those units would have a practical use in this game scenario.
05/27/2019 01:01 AMPosted by MisterAL
I'd say it is more frustrating that in reality it is very likely no BC would die. They will just jump out when focused.


That's true enough, assuming that he didn't TP in before the engagement started like the Terran player did in BatZ's example.

05/27/2019 01:03 AMPosted by tEhbAtZ
Literally could not have asked for a better engagement but it didn't matter


You could have, but again, you screwed up.
05/27/2019 01:07 AMPosted by Miro
Literally could not have asked for a better engagement but it didn't matter


You could have, but again, you screwed up.

Kid, one of the hardest things about vsing mass BC is that you can never actually force him to fight - he uses his yamato and then tactical jumps behind a wall of a billion turrets and planetary fortresses. He just did an offensive tactical jump, meaning retreating was off the table. You are NEVER going to get that good of an engagement when BCs are used properly, PERIOD. You can say I "screwed up" as much as you would like, but this scenario was THE BEST THAT IT GETS for zerg, PERIOD. I was maxed with the unit that is supposed to counter BCs and he just wasted his tactical jump and there was no missile turret support. He won anyway because BCs are broken.
05/27/2019 01:06 AMPosted by tEhbAtZ
05/27/2019 01:05 AMPosted by Miro
This isn't a vacuum.

You are sure treating it like it is, though. "In a vacuum, you can use vipers to abduct" and "in a vacuum, you can neural parasite with infestors". There is no way either of those units would have a practical use in this game scenario.


Vipers, perhaps. Infestors definitely do. Already illustrated that with the video I linked you. But sure, continue to ignore the facts.
05/27/2019 01:11 AMPosted by Miro
05/27/2019 01:06 AMPosted by tEhbAtZ
...
You are sure treating it like it is, though. "In a vacuum, you can use vipers to abduct" and "in a vacuum, you can neural parasite with infestors". There is no way either of those units would have a practical use in this game scenario.


Vipers, perhaps. Infestors definitely do. Already illustrated that with the video I linked you. But sure, continue to ignore the facts.

How do I have my infestors in position for a completely random tactical jump? He can go literally anywhere with his jump and at any moment. You cannot have infestors everywhere at once. Like I said, IN A VACUUM, infestors can be good vs BCs. IN REALITY it is not the case. Serral was in a situation where infestors would work. That is true. That does not mean that they would work in this case, or in any other case in fact.

These comparisons are being made in a vacuum and are worthless. I know in bronze league you lose to infestors with BCs. That doesn't matter to this situation.
Whining everyday ....
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Vipers, perhaps. Infestors definitely do. Already illustrated that with the video I linked you. But sure, continue to ignore the facts.

How do I have my infestors in position for a completely random tactical jump? He can go literally anywhere with his jump and at any moment. You cannot have infestors everywhere at once. Like I said, IN A VACUUM, infestors can be good vs BCs. IN REALITY it is not the case. Serral was in a situation where infestors would work. That is true. That does not mean that they would work in this case, or in any other case in fact.

These comparisons are being made in a vacuum and are worthless. I know in bronze league you lose to infestors with BCs. That doesn't matter to this situation.


I would agree with you about infestors. It's never going be as simple as "just make investors". A lot of other factors are going to need to be in play. That's why Serral is that good because he baited and pounced like a true professional.

At my level of play I can see a battle cruiser at a little past 5 mins. That kind of timing I think is somewhat unfair for a unit that powerful. It feels like having a fully loaded Protoss Carrier dropped on your base in 5 min.

They probably laugh when they wipe a couple Queens and a spore crawler with a BC just to come on the forum and tell people it is the way to stop an early BC.
05/27/2019 01:33 AMPosted by Lfod

I would agree with you about infestors. It's never going be as simple as "just make investors". A lot of other factors are going to need to be in play. That's why Serral is that good because he baited and pounced like a true professional.

At my level of play I can see a battle cruiser at a little past 5 mins. That kind of timing I think is somewhat unfair for a unit that powerful. It feels like having a fully loaded Protoss Carrier dropped on your base in 5 min.

They probably laugh when they wipe a couple Queens and a spore crawler with a BC just to come on the forum and tell people it is the way to stop an early BC.

5 min BC (Hits at 5:04 if done well) is one base build. Its all in that hits you with single unit if T wants to be safe or expands (natural goes up around 5 min mark as well). That means that that one unit T had to tech up to HAS to knock down Zerg base and half at least. Which it wont do if Zerg scouts or just builds safety queens. If first BC dies its also insta loss for T, because they have nothing else.

How to scout? Easy. T sits at home 5 min and doesnt even take natural. You dont even need speed ovi to confirm natural. If you didnt notice T being 5 min on one base and took third, honestly, you deserve the loss.
05/27/2019 01:33 AMPosted by Lfod

At my level of play I can see a battle cruiser at a little past 5 mins. That kind of timing I think is somewhat unfair for a unit that powerful. It feels like having a fully loaded Protoss Carrier dropped on your base in 5 min.

[/quote]
Hmm, that carrier proposal was interesting. 2 carriers (One full, one fresh from stargate) can hit your third/natural at 5:12 while Protoss takes 3rd base if super greedy. Only natural if you play safe. Also, if its proxied close enough, shield batteries fit the build snugly.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum