When units counter their counter

General Discussion
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05/27/2019 08:13 PMPosted by Kelthar
05/27/2019 07:43 PMPosted by AdMech
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Honestly, I am not satisfied with your argument and response to the counterarguments, but that's just me. As I said, I don't see why making Infestors and/or Vipers would require you to do a carpel tunnel or create Spore Crawlers colony.


It wouldn't, Batz is just making excuses because he cant actually create a counterargument.

List one example of an argument I haven't addressed. I'll wait.
So why does making Infestors involve making carpel tunnels (whatever that is) or Spore Crawler colonies?
05/27/2019 08:16 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
05/27/2019 08:13 PMPosted by Kelthar
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It wouldn't, Batz is just making excuses because he cant actually create a counterargument.

List one example of an argument I haven't addressed. I'll wait.


Should I just quote that post I made earlier where you deflected everything instead of actually addressing anything?
05/27/2019 08:33 PMPosted by AdMech
So why does making Infestors involve making carpel tunnels (whatever that is) or Spore Crawler colonies?

Did you read the previous BatZ posts? What part of "i refused to play a 1-hour-game" you do not understand?
Can you "compute" the implications?
05/27/2019 08:40 PMPosted by Gooba
05/27/2019 08:33 PMPosted by AdMech
So why does making Infestors involve making carpel tunnels (whatever that is) or Spore Crawler colonies?

Did you read the previous BatZ posts? What part of "i refused to play a 1-hour-game" you do not understand?
Can you "compute" the implications?
That's not an argument. That is an ultimatum that Batz imposed on himself. That doesnt mean BCs have no counter, and Serral destroyed special without a one hour game with the use of infestors. Neural parasite was specifically designed to deal with tier 3 units like the BC, if the Zerg refuses to make them it's a L2P issue, and they need to adjust their strategy to "Dont let em get there". Not too long ago you were all telling Terrans to make ghosts and EMP Protoss to deal with their T3, now it's time for those same people to make infestors and neural BCs to deal with Terran T3.
05/27/2019 08:16 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
05/27/2019 08:13 PMPosted by Kelthar
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It wouldn't, Batz is just making excuses because he cant actually create a counterargument.

List one example of an argument I haven't addressed. I'll wait.


How about the fact that he had more army value? #outplayed

How about the fact that 30 Corruptors probably SHOULDN'T beat BC? #outplayed

How about the fact that he actually used his really !@#$ty caster and you didn't have any of your REALLY, SERIOUSLY, STUPIDLY AMAZING CASTERS? #outplayed

How about the fact that anyone with an ounce of game knowledge would've known to leave the instant he Tactical Jumped on top of you? #outplayed

How about the fact that not ONE of the worst Zerg whiners on these forums (srav, Vel, Shaz, Ace) has jumped in to back you up because even they wouldn't put their credibility on the line to defend this bull%^-*?
05/27/2019 08:40 PMPosted by Gooba
05/27/2019 08:33 PMPosted by AdMech
So why does making Infestors involve making carpel tunnels (whatever that is) or Spore Crawler colonies?

Did you read the previous BatZ posts? What part of "i refused to play a 1-hour-game" you do not understand?
Can you "compute" the implications?


And what part of "why do you need to play a 1-hour game just to build a bunch of Infestors" do you not understand?

Battlecruisers take forever to build, require Starport + Fusion Core, etc. You only need Lair tech + Infestation Pit to build Infestors. Why do you need to play for one bloody hour just to build a bunch of Infestors? They don't take that long to build or research Neural Parasite.
05/27/2019 07:33 PMPosted by tEhbAtZ
That's how you choose to see things because it's simple and makes sense and conforms to your existing beliefs. Your theories about me are to you as santa claus is to a child. Reality is too harsh so you need to believe in santa claus.


My beliefs? How I see things? My theories?

Pause and take a moment, reflect on your history with me, Maegis clan, Jaka and his friends, and the countless others you've had a negative interactions with after all this time here.

Now take a deep breathe, and consume the truth - none of this is unique between just you and just me.

This is how everybody sees you. It seems like this reality might be too harsh for you, so I'll leave you with some advice to help remedy the pain;

"If everywhere you go smells like crap, maybe it's time you check your own shoe."
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Did you read the previous BatZ posts? What part of "i refused to play a 1-hour-game" you do not understand?
Can you "compute" the implications?


And what part of "why do you need to play a 1-hour game just to build a bunch of Infestors" do you not understand?

Battlecruisers take forever to build, require Starport + Fusion Core, etc. You only need Lair tech + Infestation Pit to build Infestors. Why do you need to play for one bloody hour just to build a bunch of Infestors? They don't take that long to build or research Neural Parasite.


Yes infestor can take control of a BC. It won't kill the BC unless you you have the situation set up around it. A lot more micro management is involved in what Serral did to Special than what people are willing to acknowledge for this argument.

If Special didn't walk his BCs into that trap it might of been a different game. Special over extend.

I just wish people would acknowledge that it's harder to do than "just mAke infestors" I'm not saying BCs are over powered. I am saying the move Serral pulled off was very well played.
05/27/2019 08:57 PMPosted by BaconMonster
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Did you read the previous BatZ posts? What part of "i refused to play a 1-hour-game" you do not understand?
Can you "compute" the implications?
That's not an argument. That is an ultimatum that Batz imposed on himself. That doesnt mean BCs have no counter, and Serral destroyed special without a one hour game with the use of infestors. Neural parasite was specifically designed to deal with tier 3 units like the BC, if the Zerg refuses to make them it's a L2P issue, and they need to adjust their strategy to "Dont let em get there". Not too long ago you were all telling Terrans to make ghosts and EMP Protoss to deal with their T3, now it's time for those same people to make infestors and neural BCs to deal with Terran T3.

Sure, it goes without saying that without Infestor/Viper support (and maybe Spore fields) the Corruptors are hopeless.
BatZ tried to bypass this whole process and confronted BC+Raven with Corruptors. The results were predictable.
That doesn't change the fact that TJ has to stay the way it is.......
05/27/2019 09:32 PMPosted by Lfod
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And what part of "why do you need to play a 1-hour game just to build a bunch of Infestors" do you not understand?

Battlecruisers take forever to build, require Starport + Fusion Core, etc. You only need Lair tech + Infestation Pit to build Infestors. Why do you need to play for one bloody hour just to build a bunch of Infestors? They don't take that long to build or research Neural Parasite.


Yes infestor can take control of a BC. It won't kill the BC unless you you have the situation set up around it. A lot more micro management is involved in what Serral did to Special than what people are willing to acknowledge for this argument.

If Special didn't walk his BCs into that trap it might of been a different game. Special over extend. You need to count on your opponents misplay as well.


Unfortunately your interlocutor does not understand that in the clash of BC with Corruptor/Infestors it is the terran player that has the initiative by choosing where to engage just if/when Infestors are not nearby........
05/27/2019 09:32 PMPosted by Lfod
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And what part of "why do you need to play a 1-hour game just to build a bunch of Infestors" do you not understand?

Battlecruisers take forever to build, require Starport + Fusion Core, etc. You only need Lair tech + Infestation Pit to build Infestors. Why do you need to play for one bloody hour just to build a bunch of Infestors? They don't take that long to build or research Neural Parasite.


Yes infestor can take control of a BC. It won't kill the BC unless you you have the situation set up around it. A lot more micro management is involved in what Serral did to Special than what people are willing to acknowledge for this argument.

If Special didn't walk his BCs into that trap it might of been a different game. Special over extend.

I just wish people would acknowledge that it's harder to do than "just mAke infestors" I'm not saying BCs are over powered. I am saying the move Serral pulled off was very well played.


Zerg late game does take a good bit of control, but if you can, there's no doubt they have the strongest late game bar none.
...

Yes infestor can take control of a BC. It won't kill the BC unless you you have the situation set up around it. A lot more micro management is involved in what Serral did to Special than what people are willing to acknowledge for this argument.

If Special didn't walk his BCs into that trap it might of been a different game. Special over extend.

I just wish people would acknowledge that it's harder to do than "just mAke infestors" I'm not saying BCs are over powered. I am saying the move Serral pulled off was very well played.


Zerg late game does take a good bit of control, but if you can, there's no doubt they have the strongest late game bar none.


I said last year: PvT is Zerg favored..........
05/27/2019 09:32 PMPosted by Lfod

I just wish people would acknowledge that it's harder to do than "just mAke infestors" I'm not saying BCs are over powered. I am saying the move Serral pulled off was very well played.


No one is saying that it's easy to do. I'm not saying, "just make Infestors" as an "easy" solution.

The issue here is that TehBatZ claims that Battlecruisers are overpowered because his Corruptors lost to them, and that they should be nerfed. That's why everyone is disagreeing with him.

Of course it's not easy to just make Infestors and win. But since when is winning so easy? If you want to win, you have to earn it. You can't just mass Corruptors and expect to win so easily just because they theoretically counter Battlecruisers. My opponents tried that against me before, and I beat them. There are also times when I lost because they had too many Corruptors, plus support units. But that's not because Corruptors or Infestors are overpowered, that's because my opponent outplayed me.

Here, TehBatZ has been outplayed. He lost not because Battlecruisers were overpowered, but because he didn't have the right composition or numbers to deal with them. That's all.

No one is saying making Infestors is easy. Winning is never easy. In a match between two players, there will only be one winner (or a draw). Obviously you have to work for it.

It's also not easy to be able to mass 15 Battlecruisers, so I'm not sure how TehBatZ allowed his opponent to get to that point, but that's another matter altogether.
05/27/2019 09:38 PMPosted by llllllllllll
Zerg late game does take a good bit of control, but if you can, there's no doubt they have the strongest late game bar none.

REALITY CHECK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tXxXMKiw2k&t=44m10s

05/27/2019 08:33 PMPosted by AdMech
So why does making Infestors involve making carpel tunnels (whatever that is) or Spore Crawler colonies?

A) Carpal tunnel is a medical condition that plagues people who do repetitious actions. SC2 players are especially prone to it. Unfortunately blizzard is continuing to promote game design that basically maximizes this problem.

B-1) Infestors and vipers don't work because the abilities they have are outranged by the abilities of terran units. EMP and Yamato have a longer range than abduct and neural parasite plus the terran has better vision from scans and sensor towers. The zerg is basically hugely disadvantaged in the micro wars due to those two facts (terran has longer ranged abilities, and better map vision).

B-2) You cannot beat BCs in a head-on engagement, even when maxed on the unit that is supposed to counter them, so if you want to win you either need A) a unit that doesn't cost supply (aka spores) or you B) need to throw multiple armies at it (remaxing) or C) you need a much lower drone count to get more army supply.

A - requires turtling because that's the only way spores can be used.

B - requires a lead that is impossible to achieve (I detailed the math in the original post) but if you were to achieve it, it would be through turtling, stalling and avoiding engagements. If you are actively trading it is impossible to build up a bank.

C - requires turtling because lower drone counts equate to less income so you invest into stalling mechanics (infestors, spores and vipers) that buy time while you accrue a large bank and build up a huge and expensive standing army.

No matter how you look at this, you have to turtle to respond to BCs. It is not possible to beat mass BC without turtling, and, even then, even Serral has lost to mass BC recently.

I tend to favor a hybrid approach between all these options. You get a massive drone count while you stall, this gives you a big burst of money while you are still on bases that are easy to defend and then as you have to start taking more vulnerable bases you drop your worker count down by massing a bunch of spores. Sometimes I will go down to even 20 workers and I will systematically mine out one base at a time while slow pushing the opponent.

That's the sort of play that BCs encourage and it is REALLY bad game design. This thread is simply an example of just how much BCs encourage that playstyle. Corruptors are zerg's best answer to bcs in terms of a head-on engagement. Look at how bad they are. They are trash. There is no option except to turtle and that's bad game design. Playstyles should encourage players to actively try to win the game, this playstyle encourages both players to stall and drag the game out and it's bad game design.
Doesn't your opponent have to turtle to build Battlecruisers in the first place? I'm not sure how he managed to get that much resources and such a high Battlecruiser count if he didn't turtle.
05/27/2019 09:19 PMPosted by Incubus
Pause and take a moment, reflect on your history with me, Maegis clan, Jaka and his friends, and the countless others you've had a negative interactions with after all this time here.

Now take a deep breathe, and consume the truth - none of this is unique between just you and just me.

This is how everybody sees you.

That's not true at all and shame on you for trying to gaslight me. Here is a great example:

https://i.imgur.com/a6YFmG6.png

When I ladder on this account, I get random people complimenting me especially with regards to the forums.

05/27/2019 09:19 PMPosted by Incubus
Pause and take a moment, reflect on your history with me, Maegis clan, Jaka and his friends

Yes, I have records for some of it. You and maegis forum trolls developed an obsession with me to the point that you did coordinated harassment across multiple platforms. On multiple occasions you even tried to doxx me. At one point it got so out of hand I honestly thought about going to the police. You know how Avilo got in trouble recently from harassing that poor girl? That situation often reminds me of how you and your buddies acted, especially when I review examples such as these:

06/30/2015 08:33 PMPosted by IIIIIIIIIIII
I am going to re-post this since the trolls are trying to bury it, as it really does need some moderator attention:

06/17/2015 02:38 PMPosted by LIKESHlT
b!tch and moan

06/17/2015 05:47 PMPosted by IIIIIIIIIIII
That giant gaping v agina of his would have caught wind and launched him hundreds of feet in the air!

06/26/2015 02:37 PMPosted by imeurotrash
flaring your autistic defense mechanisms so hard

06/17/2015 05:36 PMPosted by IIIIIIIIIIII
you spineless b itch.

06/17/2015 02:38 PMPosted by LIKESHlT
pathetic person

06/26/2015 02:37 PMPosted by imeurotrash
I hope you can communicate like a normal human-being in the future.

06/17/2015 02:38 PMPosted by LIKESHlT
What a loser.

06/30/2015 01:04 PMPosted by IIIIIIIIIIII
online sociopath

06/30/2015 01:04 PMPosted by IIIIIIIIIIII
socially inept


I added the quotes from Incubus' latest rampage in addition to the previous ones.


These aren't even the worst - they are the ones that have survived the NUMEROUS moderator purges that have caused you to have 12 accounts banned from the forums. Just so we are clear - this post is NOT a threat. This post is simply a reminder to you that you are garbage, and that you should improve yourself as a human being. Seek professional help if needs be, before you run into someone who is less tolerant than I am and you end up like Avilo. That is unfortunately the natural course that people like you take and hopefully one day you will thank me for this reminder that I have given to you. I would like to think that this "snaps you out of it" but in reality I know someone that has engaged in this behavior for YEARS will not be dissuaded.
REALITY CHECK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tXxXMKiw2k&t=44m10s

The clown strike again. You can't even understand a game ....
05/27/2019 11:08 PMPosted by ByunJovi
REALITY CHECK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tXxXMKiw2k&t=44m10s

The clown strike again. You can't even understand a game ....

Bourne claimed that Zerg's late game is the strongest. I showed him a class-2 terran demolishing the best player on Earth with a mass BC a-move. I think I made my point quite clearly. Terran's late-game is both stronger and easy to do, period.
05/27/2019 09:32 PMPosted by Lfod
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And what part of "why do you need to play a 1-hour game just to build a bunch of Infestors" do you not understand?

Battlecruisers take forever to build, require Starport + Fusion Core, etc. You only need Lair tech + Infestation Pit to build Infestors. Why do you need to play for one bloody hour just to build a bunch of Infestors? They don't take that long to build or research Neural Parasite.


Yes infestor can take control of a BC. It won't kill the BC unless you you have the situation set up around it. A lot more micro management is involved in what Serral did to Special than what people are willing to acknowledge for this argument.

If Special didn't walk his BCs into that trap it might of been a different game. Special over extend.

I just wish people would acknowledge that it's harder to do than "just mAke infestors" I'm not saying BCs are over powered. I am saying the move Serral pulled off was very well played.


It was, and I agree. But theres one crucial difference in the game special had versus serral. He used his tac jump to escape rather than jump in like what was demonstrated in tehbatz game. If you jump in, and there are infestors waiting to NP you guarantee the death of every single BC there.

Regardless of the fact that even if they didnt get off NP, the majority of corruptors would have survived adding an absurd amount of Damage capability to BatZ's army, because instead of losing half his corruptors to yamato, he would have lost maybe one or two, purely on the basis that infestors are a significantly greater threat due to the potential of NP to force BCs to yamato each other instead of his units, and therefore the opposing player would have been far more inclined to hit the more dangerous infestors.

Obviously the situation is not so simple as to "have infestors", because spell caster control is definitely very tricky but certainly capable for someone who is diamond and above, albeit with differing levels of success that scales with control.

To say that it was imba is disingenuous at best.

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