Co-op Mission Update - May 2, 2019

Co-op Missions Discussion
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Stukov revamp ideas:

1) Queen can act similar to Infest Overseer on DoN. This can give this underused unit a fresh and perhaps creative way to support the army as they are meant to.

2) Cost of mech can come down a bit in general. I feel even a small cut of 25 gas would make it much easier for most players. As it stands, playing mech is much more resource choice intensive than his bio, leading to further disparity.

3) I feel that the mastery set for 1 and 3 are both non competitive to their counter part. Set 1 can perhaps include a form of healing to all or perhaps as additional to queens. Set 3 volatile is much more useful as timer can be mitigated by moving spawning structures.

Dehaka revamp ideas:

1) Several of his units are underused. This include fire roach, ravasaur, and impalers. A boost to these would make Dehaka a much more versatile commander in terms of build compositions.

2) His masteries are perhaps among the worst in terms of both choice and competitiveness. Set 1 devour already has its own unique bonuses, this further buff is weak and not useful, entirely wasting a mastery set. Set 2 pack leaders outweighs by far. Set 3 is well designed but gene mutation require much tuning to outperform the eventual bonus attack speed Dehaka gains once he levels up.

3) Dehaka ability tree to level unlock should be changed. There is no apparent reason behind why certain levels or one point abilities are locked behind x level. While a few exceptions such as air attack and fire breath can make a small case, these numbers can be tweaked. Others such as early detection or continued points into multi leveled abilities should not be locked.
Dehaka
Need to high ground vision and climb cliff when Dehaka reach lv10, he taken by air attacks but why he can't see the highground and also climb cliff? this is ridiculous.
Tyrannozor
Not only Primal Ultralisk, Tyrannozor also need Healing Adaptation upgrade this monster is great but, there are very lack of options for his massive hp treatment.

Stukov
Diamondback
Need healing option and there is no problem with the representation of the tool tip but actually didn't applied attack speed mastery because of diamondback's attack style, this mechanism is configured to take several fake attacks after damage and these fake attacks interfere with the attack speed mastery, just destroy the rock near expansion point to 1diamondback, you can realize there's no change to attack speed, to solve this problem should delete their fake attacks.

Infested Liberator
11/26/2018 07:59 AMPosted by Maguro
The current implementation is awkward. I made a demo of how it could be improved. It would let you control them in the cloud form, and they would return to their normal form only after there are no enemy air units around.
[quote]https://youtu.be/r8qMC8c10Kw

Maybe OP but this is really awesome! I think this demo looks much better than buffing the lib's cost and etc, that demo got performance and fun both.

Infested Banshee
Banshee is fast and also has lot's of viable option, tanky hp & Rapid Hibernation can regen mp and hp extremely fast but underwhelming by tank & diamond back, tank can do Deep Tunnel it make extremely mobile and can throw powerful volatile infested in "18" range, Diamondback is fragile but faster than banshee and Fungal snare can make attacking air units not only this Caustic mucus are erase swarmy waves, Banshee is too focused on viability, so banshee's attack option is not as advantageous as other units, I think Banshee's need a something that helps banshee's attacking ability like increase dps or decrease cost to make mass producing.

And I hope you to revamp one more the overall Alarak's balance and some of Swann's units.
05/02/2019 07:30 PMPosted by rasmasyean
05/02/2019 07:14 PMPosted by Cybernetic
...Why? Siege Tanks can use Deep Tunnel and Diamondbacks are quite fast.

...They are standard anti-air with a unique attack. The cloud thing is simply a defensive measure; they are not designed to soak tons of damage as aerial tanks.


If they allow Infantry to board the dropship with paused timers, it can serve better as on location support for tanks and and stuff. Not to mention ability to drop SCV's to reapair stuff and build turrets (not to mention to support air units). Right now, the Tank teleports pretty much independently of everything else.


Thats why you can move your barracks or bunkers, there is no need to have something like drops for that, anyways, how many you'll need for that, given that each overlord only carry 8 and hercs 30, that's not practical or useful at all, it's easier to unroot bunkers then place them near the action
This might come off as a bit selfish but I hope you can give us a hint or a little tease about potentional new commanders/maps in the works.

Don't get me wrong, these reworks are very much needed and I am glad they are going to happen but I was hoping since it's been a few months for a little.. more?

Besides that though, welcome back Monk. Hope to hear more in the future.
About damn time!
Really looking forward to some refreshing playstyle.
I crawl out of my hole to show my appreciation that you have returned with a sign that there is more coming for Co-op for us to enjoy.
05/02/2019 08:45 PMPosted by jedi
How about change Dehaka's regeneration aura from 1,2,3 HP/sec to 1%, 2% and 3%/sec? If that is too strong, let them regenerate 1,2,3 in combat and 1%2%3% when out of combat.


I like that second one a lot, perhaps , (since it would apply to Dehaka himself)
1/2/3 per sec always
+ 1%/2%/3% per sec out of combat for non heroic*
+ 3/6/9 out of combat for Heroic (since it would affect Dehaka himself with 600 hp at level 1 to ~2000 hp at high levels)

*This would boost Tyrannosoaurs
05/02/2019 09:16 PMPosted by Valon
The most important thing to do with stukov

1) Rename liberator to Valkyrie and change the model to reflect it. Stukov never used liberators he did use Valkyries and it's baffling an iconic unit in his type of arsenal isn't used. Also his liberators only attack air units....which is what a valkyrie does. Liberators can siege up and attack ground...and his liberators don't. Please change the model to reflect it as a valkyrie and give it a name change.

As for other things

Factory is unimpressive. I never enjoy using factory units. They are kind of pricey and except for the left 4 dead one tanks aren't useful, and even then going mass air is a much better option. On all other maps, mass air is great but spamming marines is just as good. Things that make factory bad is that the diamondbacks AA ability has too long of a cooldown to be of much use. 45 seconds is way too long. It leaves factory units vulnerable at critical times. And caustic mucus is utterly useless. Why waste the money on it. Factory really needs help and make the units more useful. They have boring abilities that something else does better.


They buffed the Tank since, but in the "original" release, iirc, I was able to use Tanks/Bunker/Turret in Rumble in the Jungle (Drops, Freeze Circles, Cloaked Enemy - on the Terrazine map) and frequently saved in the 10,000 range of resources at max army. So they are excelent for defense as long as they are supported. Now they have longer range and the deep tunnel makes them great for offense support when needed.

In Creamation (Burning Corpses, Ressurection Priests - on Left for Dead map), I was able to similarly accumulate 10,000 range resources with max air army, though with some Bunkers for shuttle defense. This is also the pre-buff air iirc. In addition to the obvious Broodling vs. Priests, I just rooted waves above trees so they can't drop, etc. And at the ends I rooted the shuttle attackers...it roots Hybrids on this map unless they changed it. I don't think you can do this with Tanks.

So I think it's just a matter of the situation AND map, not just air blows ground mech away. Also many ppl say Diamondback is good for Propagators (one of the harder mutators).

I think the "issue" is that infantry is so good, players don't bother to practice his other units. This makes them short of the mechanics and micro to use his other units, Factory or otherwise. But they are still good in in special situations.
05/02/2019 07:14 PMPosted by Cybernetic
05/02/2019 06:21 PMPosted by rasmasyean
Stukov needs a dropship.
Why? Siege Tanks can use Deep Tunnel and Diamondbacks are quite fast.

05/02/2019 06:38 PMPosted by rasmasyean
I always thought the "role" of the Infested Liberator is as a tank/decoy.
They are standard anti-air with a unique attack. The cloud thing is simply a defensive measure; they are not designed to soak tons of damage as aerial tanks.


Well, whatever it was designed for, it still does seem to be able to work as a tank unit. Like you send them in and the enemies target them. Then you can use say...the weaker Queens to Broodling all that stuff in the increased vision that would otherwise kill them easily. Or...if it's too much, just ensnare a bunch of stuff and run. This way you only lose the Liberators...if they die fortified.
05/03/2019 06:31 PMPosted by rasmasyean
Well, whatever it was designed for, it still does seem to be able to work as a tank unit. Like you send them in and the enemies target them. Then you can use say...the weaker Queens to Broodling all that stuff in the increased vision that would otherwise kill them easily. Or...if it's too much, just ensnare a bunch of stuff and run. This way you only lose the Liberators...if they die fortified.
That's quite a stretch, not sure what you are trying to pull here.

The primary role of a tank is to absorb large amounts of damage at any given time with a large amount of HP being the typical major factor. Infested Liberators have a damage mitigator that's only active when they attack but relatively low HP. If they are not attacking, they are basically expensive flimsy decoys that could be easily shot down.
05/03/2019 07:44 PMPosted by Cybernetic
05/03/2019 06:31 PMPosted by rasmasyean
Well, whatever it was designed for, it still does seem to be able to work as a tank unit. Like you send them in and the enemies target them. Then you can use say...the weaker Queens to Broodling all that stuff in the increased vision that would otherwise kill them easily. Or...if it's too much, just ensnare a bunch of stuff and run. This way you only lose the Liberators...if they die fortified.
That's quite a stretch, not sure what you are trying to pull here.

The primary role of a tank is to absorb large amounts of damage at any given time with a large amount of HP being the typical major factor. Infested Liberators have a damage mitigator that's only active when they attack but relatively low HP. If they are not attacking, they are basically expensive flimsy decoys that could be easily shot down.


OK so it can enter "tank mode". 90% reduction is a pretty good deal for 6 seconds. And it does kinda hop into the enemy so it's often not that easy to shoot down in "flimsy mode".

In general, Stukov air seems more designed around guerrilla warfare anyway. You're not supposed to "Abathur" the enemies. Even if you have enough to do a single engagement, you don't make it last that long. Like iirc, "SkyTerran" waves can be taken out without a Liberator in this trick I used were I put an Overlord(s) ahead for vision and "tank". Then ensnare followed by a bunch of Broodlings pretty much reduces all the threat and their force is really small by the first strike.
05/03/2019 08:05 PMPosted by rasmasyean
OK so it can enter "tank mode". 90% reduction is a pretty good deal for 6 seconds. And it does kinda hop into the enemy so it's often not that easy to shoot down in "flimsy mode".
The reason they have the 90% reduction is that they enter melee range to do that cloud based attack. This makes them highly vulnerable to attack and they would be destroyed all too easily otherwise. But even with that damage reduction, they only have 180 hp which is a relatively small amount for a tank regardless.

05/03/2019 08:05 PMPosted by rasmasyean
In general, Stukov air seems more designed around guerrilla warfare anyway.
Guerilla warfare is about a small force using ambushes, sabotage and otherwise irregular tactics against a much larger army. Infested Liberators don't fit that description because they are inherently like any other flying anti-air unit.

If anyone could be seen as using guerilla tactics, it's Nova.
This is a selfish demand, but can you have Dehaka gets a psionic boom when devouring non psionic units with energy like Raven BattleCruiser and Scientist Vessel?

It would make more sense if their energy burst into explosion rather than just die out
05/03/2019 08:34 PMPosted by Cybernetic
05/03/2019 08:05 PMPosted by rasmasyean
OK so it can enter "tank mode". 90% reduction is a pretty good deal for 6 seconds. And it does kinda hop into the enemy so it's often not that easy to shoot down in "flimsy mode".
The reason they have the 90% reduction is that they enter melee range to do that cloud based attack. This makes them highly vulnerable to attack and they would be destroyed all too easily otherwise. But even with that damage reduction, they only have 180 hp which is a relatively small amount for a tank regardless.

05/03/2019 08:05 PMPosted by rasmasyean
In general, Stukov air seems more designed around guerrilla warfare anyway.
Guerilla warfare is about a small force using ambushes, sabotage and otherwise irregular tactics against a much larger army. Infested Liberators don't fit that description because they are inherently like any other flying anti-air unit.

If anyone could be seen as using guerilla tactics, it's Nova.


90% damage reduction of 180 -> 1,800 damage to take it down. That's not a small amount. If you fly them into a bunch of say "Phoenixes", it will keep them busy while you can do other stuff...Broodling, Ensnare, whatever your build allows you to do to them or things under them.

Hit and run is also a form of guerilla tactic, no? If you wound the enemy enough by decoying them with the Liberator and sniping key units and then running...even if they kill it, you still may break their composition enough such that you can just let it run into a lighter defense and not even worry about Infest Structure or whatever that Stukov players always use.
Stukov

General
Stukov needs self heal or regeneration for his permanent units. They could have out of combat regeneration when on creep (or flying over it for queens) with the mastery increasing the amount or reducing the cooldown after which the regeneration starts, maximum mastery effectively making it combat regeneration.

Queens

Queens's limited cast range forced them to get too close to enemies, and their inability to heal themselves up causes them to die easily after repeated fights. Would recommend increasing cast range and adding a self heal or regeneration.

The ability could snare air, allowing infested to attack air units.

Increasing the area of effect of root and making it disable enemies from casting abilities (like battlecruiser yamatos) could work as well.

Spawn broodling is an odd ability, expensive and unable to be used on the tanky units it should be useful against. You could change it to refund half the cost when used on weak enemies and cost the full cast when used against massive enemies. Or deal direct damage to massive. Now it is literally useless and not worth wasting energy for.

Diamondbacks

They both lack self healing and their snare takes too long to use. Would recommend reducing the cooldown or making the snare have an area of effect, snaring multiple enemies at once. Regardless of the change it can't be used when fighting air as it can't snare heroic units and it is forced to be used as support.

Does the ability activate even while moving? I remember needing to stop to snare air units, which is an odd choice for a tank that has the unique ability to attack while moving. If there are multiple Diamondbacks is anything preventing them from wasting their ability on the same target in the same second as soon as they see it?

Bunkers

A root now button would be nice to root all selected bunkers at once.

Missile turrets

The health regeneration and armor upgrades could affect it as well to allow it to heal up during or after a fight and be a bit more durable.

Liberators

They are an odd choice for an air unit as they rush forward in cloud form. They could attack via tentacles instead (like the Aleksander) and for each unit attacked they will gain more damage resistance. I have no idea how they could or should counter swarmy zerg air however as they will get nuked by scource every time.

Banshees

Could use a movement speed buff, an area of attack option and perhaps increased attack range. They are weak compared to other options. Or you could make them attack air as well to be more usable.

Infested compound

You should motivate players to move the building around. Upgrades could continue to research while it is uprooted to be able to move it during the beginning of the mission without loosing the much needed upgrades.
Dehaka

General
His army lacks detectors that can move with it. I am not counting worms as you need to keep re-tunneling them. This is an issue if you want to split his army from Dehaka himself.

Tyrannozor

Lacks a way to heal up, effectively making it an expensive suicide unit. It could use combat regeneration.

Impaler

An interesting unit, thou requires focus to re-burrow. Try experimenting with adding autocast to burrow and increasing the burrow speed, making them unburrow and burrow when moving.

Dehaka

Deep tunnel recharge could be reduced by 15 seconds, or it could be reduced by a mastery to add more mobility to the hero.

Primal Wurm

Should heal up after a fight.

Greatear Primal Wurm

An odd thing, mostly use it for emergency detection. It should regenerate during a fight and it's burrow should not have a cooldown to be able to move it around as needed. Even then, it's damage is pitiful and it is one of the weakest topbar abilities. It could at least deal area of effect attacks.

Should it even have a duration? You did add topbar turrets for Zerathul that do not expire..

Dehaka himself

He should have high ground vision when in godzilla form. Regeneration aura is nice, but healing a % of health could work better as he has a hard time healing up tanky units.

He also lacks aoe against air units, as both his jump and fire breath only affect ground.
Also please make Impalers and Primal/Creeper Hosts to burrow and unborrow at the same time.
When tried to unborrow to move them, Only hosts unborrow while Impalers just stay there and die.
Stukov Queen:

How about swap that "Ocular symbiote" thing and give it that "Parasite" thing from SC1. I never used that spell as there are always Overlords and Turrets with me.

For example, after casting it on an approaching wave via "Scout Queen", players will be more able to maximize the 9 range spells and time it easier than just cast ensnare into the fog of war and hope it hits something that approaches before it shoots you down. Casting it on a guard will allow you to Infest a deeper structure.
A short followup for Stukov, as a few other ideas came to mind after reading the thread.

Queens

They should be detectors as they can already cast parasites on themselves. Optical parasite could be permanent but only for a specific set of units, the next cast woud remove from previous unit. Or spell cost on timed infested would be half. Or the parasite would be permanent on timed infested. Or could increase unit vision range, perhaps even attack range.

Overlords could be used as transports. Putting units in would freeze expiration timer. They should be able to propagate creep.

Volatile infested are a must have mastery, consider adding it as one of the lvl up upgrades and have the mastery either improve it further or replace it with another one aimed at healing units.
05/03/2019 11:02 PMPosted by rasmasyean
90% damage reduction of 180 -> 1,800 damage to take it down. That's not a small amount. If you fly them into a bunch of say "Phoenixes", it will keep them busy while you can do other stuff...Broodling, Ensnare, whatever your build allows you to do to them or things under them.
So long as there is something for the Liberators to attack and they are in range they'll be okay. But that's not always the case. If they are out of cloud form looking for other targets that's when they are most vulnerable and are easily picked off.

Brood Queens are largely impractical because they are slow moving, have low HP, spells have short range and Spawn Broodlings does not affect massive or heroic units. You would be relying on a lot of things to go right for this to even work. You are better off just sending the Compound Infested instead.

05/03/2019 11:02 PMPosted by rasmasyean
Hit and run is also a form of guerilla tactic, no? If you wound the enemy enough by decoying them with the Liberator and sniping key units and then running...even if they kill it, you still may break their composition enough such that you can just let it run into a lighter defense and not even worry about Infest Structure or whatever that Stukov players always use.
Why would you use low HP units that are expensive to replace as decoys in a hit and run? That's what the Infested are for.

Generally speaking, any unit could conceivably be used with guerilla tactics in mind but suitability is the key. Infested Liberators are too limited to be effective but Nova's Liberators definitely are up for the job.

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