What is the role of the void ray?

General Discussion
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05/03/2019 12:20 PMPosted by MyOhMind
Voidrays = Vikings, Corruptors and anything that is armored.
Actually, Vikings are supposed to counter voidrays by kiting. That was the stated reason for the speed nerf on activating PA back when they nerfed it to reduce speed by 40% (from which point voidrays disappeared completely, from seeing a little bit of use), because viking speed/acceleration wasn't high enough for them to kite voidrays effectively.
Void rays can already shoot while moving. Its just that unlike phoenixes, they are unable to turn while attacking, so as soon as something leaves their firing arc, they cant shoot it anymore.


I know they can shoot while moving, but it is not as you are describing. I already explained it in an earlier post. I know it's how it's explained on TL, but test it and you'll see it's not actually the case. I would like for the VR to come back to that mechanic of the 40° angle. I know it was the case in WoL, I'm not sure when it was changed.

The way it works right now, the VR will not attack an ennemy unit while giving a simple move command, even if the unit is right on front of it.
It will only attack while moving with an attack command (a move or a clic). But it means it will wait for the unit to be at maxed range before starting to move.
So basically, if a unit is faster than the VR, the attack while moving has very little use. It especially true since the VR doesn't have that great of a DPS without PA and an even slower speed with PA.
You can technically try the moving shot trick, but with a 0,36sec attack speed you will loose a lot of DPS.

05/03/2019 12:22 PMPosted by MyOhMind
Voidrays are supposed to counter Vikings and vice versa. Since both units are armored air units that do a bonus vs armored.


That's exactly why I ask this change. Right now, the Viking kill VR because they can kite. If you give the VR to much speed it will be the other way around. With my change it will be more of a micro battle, the one making the least mistake wins. It's all theoritical ofc, and the higher you go up the ladder, the worse VRs will do because you would still need a mistake from the Terran to have a chance. But it's the only improvement I see without a radical change of the unit.
05/03/2019 01:52 PMPosted by Asamu
05/03/2019 12:20 PMPosted by MyOhMind
Voidrays = Vikings, Corruptors and anything that is armored.
Actually, Vikings are supposed to counter voidrays by kiting. That was the stated reason for the speed nerf on activating PA back when they nerfed it to reduce speed by 40% (from which point voidrays disappeared completely, from seeing a little bit of use),


They recently reduced the PA speed nerf from 40% to 25%.
Void Rays wreck the lower leagues, that's why they suck everywhere else.

For exhibit B: take a look at the head scratching Widow Mine nerf that none of the pros asked for.
The Void Ray is just extremely difficult to balance in it's current weapon configuration. Their better off fully making it into an a fleet escort ship than an anti-armor ship that is too slow because if it was actually fast it would be op.
05/03/2019 02:40 PMPosted by ZXOmegaXZ
The Void Ray is just extremely difficult to balance in it's current weapon configuration. Their better off fully making it into an a fleet escort ship than an anti-armor ship that is too slow because if it was actually fast it would be op.

What do you mean by "fleet escort ship"? On the other hand, which "Fleet"? Tempest have a negligible DPS with 50-80% overkill, Carriers....let's not open that wound.
Most of the damage is left to Storms those days.....
The problem with the Void Ray, is that Protoss air is already exceedingly strong in the late game. Voids do have some utility in allowing Protoss to transition into Sky later game (so they don't lose to the first round of Brood Lords), but all in all, they're not a great unit and have not been for a while.

If you were to buff them, you'd really have to stuff some of the Protoss Capital Ships' power (both of which I support).
I agree the VR suffer from its strength in lower league. It is quite powerful head on, but completly falls apart with some micro from the opponent.

But even head on, Marines and Hydra hardcounters them. In PvP they are more of an issue because Stalkers are armored, but even there, there are counters.

But that's why it needs some micro potential, not more base stats.

05/03/2019 02:47 PMPosted by llllllllllll
The problem with the Void Ray, is that Protoss air is already exceedingly strong in the late game.

We don't play the same game. Skytoss without ground support is utterly garbage since the Carrier nerf. And the VR is a specialized units with a lot of counters. And last but not least, we are not asking for a huge buff, just a place in the game beyond a few rare occasions.
05/03/2019 02:47 PMPosted by llllllllllll
The problem with the Void Ray, is that Protoss air is already exceedingly strong in the late game. Voids do have some utility in allowing Protoss to transition into Sky later game (so they don't lose to the first round of Brood Lords), but all in all, they're not a great unit and have not been for a while.

If you were to buff them, you'd really have to stuff some of the Protoss Capital Ships' power (both of which I support).

LOL, more Carrier/Tempest nerffs in the pipes......
This dodo has difficulties understanding that VR are not damage-dealers but guardians that keep the counters away to SkyToss in order for them to deal damage.......
If you nerff further the crippled damage-dealers, what's the point with efforts to protect them?
05/03/2019 02:00 PMPosted by Papanarbre
VR


Papanarbre, I just put your change in the Better Game Balance mod that I have.

The positive difference it makes with Voidrays is incredible, it's comparative to when the BC got the fire while moving.

Voidrays play better, control better, feel better and look better. Best part is no stats actually had to be changed and it's very balanced.
05/03/2019 03:08 PMPosted by MyOhMind
05/03/2019 02:00 PMPosted by Papanarbre
VR


Papanarbre, I just put your change in the Better Game Balance mod that I have.

The positive difference it makes with Voidrays is incredible, it's comparative to when the BC got the fire while moving.

Voidrays play better, control better, feel better and look better. Best part is no stats actually had to be changed and it's very balanced.

I rarely saw a suggestion of Papanarbre that did not like......
The sad part is that is more probable to have Motherships cost 50/50 than any of his ideas applied by the MoronTeam.

I will play a game now with your Mod.
05/03/2019 02:49 PMPosted by Papanarbre
I agree the VR suffer from its strength in lower league. It is quite powerful head on, but completly falls apart with some micro from the opponent.

But even head on, Marines and Hydra hardcounters them. In PvP they are more of an issue because Stalkers are armored, but even there, there are counters.

But that's why it needs some micro potential, not more base stats.

05/03/2019 02:47 PMPosted by llllllllllll
The problem with the Void Ray, is that Protoss air is already exceedingly strong in the late game.

We don't play the same game. Skytoss without ground support is utterly garbage since the Carrier nerf. And the VR is a specialized units with a lot of counters. And last but not least, we are not asking for a huge buff, just a place in the game beyond a few rare occasions.


So you don't think Protoss has an advantage LATE game?
I'm being serious, explain your position. I haven't considered the late game much since the newest patch. What compositions or tactics are you having trouble with?
05/03/2019 03:46 PMPosted by llllllllllll
I'm being serious, explain your position. I haven't considered the late game much since the newest patch. What compositions or tactics are you having trouble with?


Lol. Downvote and can't respond. Typical.
05/03/2019 12:55 PMPosted by MyOhMind
05/03/2019 12:47 PMPosted by NinjaDuckBob
...Pretty sure discussing the Void Ray's role itself (and therefore its design) is appropriate for a thread literally titled, "What is the role of the void ray?" That's broader than only small changes, though it doesn't exclude small changes.

The Voidray is supposed to be this anti-armor "surgical strike craft", but it's not fast enough to be a strike craft which makes micro hard to do. Voidrays move a 2.5, Vikings move at 2.75.

Another problem with the voidray is the supply cost of 4, in late game situations(and I think Gooba will agree with me here) Protoss has to have the right balance of air units in the composition to handle different threats or else they will get overwhelmed.

Papanarbre brought up an excellent suggestion to make the voidray be better to control and micro with the fire while moving. I've been testing with it in the map editor and it makes Voidrays so fun to use.

The design of the Voidray suffers from the original design it had during WoL, which favored A-moving to charge up to become really powerful. Now we have Voidrays that have the PA ability, but on the topic of that the PA ability is the only time voidrays feel powerful against armored targets they are supposed to counter.
It seems to me that long range single-target damage fits the description of "surgical strike craft" perfectly -- focus-firing units from afar.

Regardless, move-fire could be a solid buff, though it could also make cheese quite a bit stronger.
05/03/2019 03:08 PMPosted by MyOhMind
05/03/2019 02:00 PMPosted by Papanarbre
VR


Papanarbre, I just put your change in the Better Game Balance mod that I have.

The positive difference it makes with Voidrays is incredible, it's comparative to when the BC got the fire while moving.

Voidrays play better, control better, feel better and look better. Best part is no stats actually had to be changed and it's very balanced.


I would like to try out your mod but I cannot find it in custom /melee section.Can you tell me how to find it so that i can test it out?
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Papanarbre, I just put your change in the Better Game Balance mod that I have.

The positive difference it makes with Voidrays is incredible, it's comparative to when the BC got the fire while moving.

Voidrays play better, control better, feel better and look better. Best part is no stats actually had to be changed and it's very balanced.


I would like to try out your mod but I cannot find it in custom /melee section.Can you tell me how to find it so that i can test it out?


Custom-> Melee (select the map) -> Click "Create With Mod" -> Search for "Better Game Balance"

Now that the Voidray change is done(been trying to figure out the perfect change for it over the past few months since PvT Voidrays is what I wanted to make viable), I'm going to be working on the remaining Protoss changes.

Also in the Mod both TvP Mech and ZvT Lurkers are substantially more viable with some solid simple changes that are not game breaking.
05/03/2019 05:31 PMPosted by MyOhMind
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I would like to try out your mod but I cannot find it in custom /melee section.Can you tell me how to find it so that i can test it out?


Custom-> Melee (select the map) -> Click "Create With Mod" -> Search for "Better Game Balance"

Now that the Voidray change is done(been trying to figure out the perfect change for it over the past few months since PvT Voidrays is what I wanted to make viable), I'm going to be working on the remaining Protoss changes.

Also in the Mod both TvP Mech and ZvT Lurkers are substantially more viable with some solid simple changes that are not game breaking.


I tried the mod and I believe you gave them the ability to fire when there are units within their arc range ( by moving with the mouse instead of having to spam click a - move). I have to say this change made them feel so much stronger when you could glide them in the right direction in order to hunt down units. It actually felt like a surgical unit.

The only thing I am going to nitpick is the fact that the mod wasn't perfect. The void rays would sometimes ignore units in their arc range while moving but sometimes they would not.
For the longest time I saw the Petard from AoE2 as the most useless unit in that game, until I read some useful guides and realized how they can be useful in some situations, I think the OP hasn't seen that usefulness yet in the void ray and should practice more.
...

Custom-> Melee (select the map) -> Click "Create With Mod" -> Search for "Better Game Balance"

Now that the Voidray change is done(been trying to figure out the perfect change for it over the past few months since PvT Voidrays is what I wanted to make viable), I'm going to be working on the remaining Protoss changes.

Also in the Mod both TvP Mech and ZvT Lurkers are substantially more viable with some solid simple changes that are not game breaking.


I tried the mod and I believe you gave them the ability to fire when there are units within their arc range ( by moving with the mouse instead of having to spam click a - move). I have to say this change made them feel so much stronger when you could glide them in the right direction in order to hunt down units. It actually felt like a surgical unit.

The only thing I am going to nitpick is the fact that the mod wasn't perfect. The void rays would sometimes ignore units in their arc range while moving but sometimes they would not.

I guess that is not MyOhMind's fault. He simply implemented a change, the coding is done by Blizzard and no-one can touch or modify it outside Blizzard-themselves.

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