Co-op Mission Update - Dehaka Revamp

Co-op Missions Discussion
Good changes here, I hope you re-assess Stukov though, mainly the bunkers. As said before the bunkers being the way they are aren't his problem, but rather the lack of unit variety and proper buffs.
Disappointing but expected, mutas were nerfed, didn't think it was all that needed since Guardians already have a fair bit better dps against ground so one would want to build them anyway against heavy ground comps if wanting to maximise dps.
Annoying that Guardians then also received a slight damage nerf, making Dehaka's air weaker overall.
I guess that's the new revamp strategy; Nerf what's good, instead of working properly on making the less used comps more attractive.

Would have been better to slightly buff the Guardian instead to make them more attractive in their role, perhaps by lowering the Explosive Spores activation delay and for its autocast to target objectives like trains, but nice that at least Tyrannozor finally got that regen they sorely needed.

Ultra/tyra probably still aren't worthwhile considering their high supply cost, but at least they are a tad more sustainable, even if I overall still think that Dehaka simply doesn't have a combined ground composition that really gels all that well together or feel particularly satisfying to use. Maybe it's the lack of abilities that can be microed, or that ground is a lot more clumsy mobility wise than air, I don't know...

And a major disappointment that all the discussion about the unpopular and totally unnecessary Stukov nerf, the still lacklustre banshee, and subpar mech comps in general, and all the other things the revamp proposal had missed, wasn't addressed with a single word.
I wish that Monk or anyone else from the coop team actually engaged in dialogue in the revamp threads.

A shame nothing was done about the primal Wurms, what I had hoped for the most was to see something done about their supply cost so Dehaka would finally have a late-game mineral dump.

I still think the Ravasaur's base damage should be increased a fair bit, before it literally had the same base dps as a zergling, now it has less.
The problem is that the Ravasaur is still a noob trap. It's not intuitive for beginners that they might not necessarily want to evolve the first units available.

Actually using hydras are also still a waste of resources in general, they might be more useful if Muscular augments gave them +2 range instead to keep them safer, and if they had a higher base damage.
Probably still a waste of gas in most circumstances, but less of one. Really no reason to ever use them and run the risk of attrition, which would lead to fewer mutas.

Doesn't really matter if a research is made dirt cheap, when it doesn't offer anything to make the hydras worthwhile.
Even offering a research for a basic unit at all feel kinda pointless for Dehaka and goes against his theme since you won't be using them long-term.
Better to have them be decent out of the gate and removing the research entirely, since any usage is outright stated to be intended only as a stopgap measure.
Dakrun rather than a health increase , i think he should have a dmg taken cap like blaze since dakrun will die harder to black death now , i dont see how he is supposed to tank granted black death has always been harsh on tanky units, its making it worse now . I also do get we are not supposed to balance around mutation but this makes the role negligble , since mutation are meant to force us to be handicapped .
If I can give an aesthetic suggestion.
Please use the Primal Ravager skin for Primal Igniter, since Primal Roach and Primal Igniter models are nearly identical.
The Death Fleet change was unexpected but welcomed, however for such a long cool down, I don't think it changes much about player perception of this commander. Perhaps raise the base attack speed of Alarak and his units or raise the value on his first two set of mastery points to make the commander more appealing.

There is no reason why we shouldn't be able to use structure overcharge offensively on War Prisms outside of phase mode.

Alarak's destruction wave is far more versatile than his Vanguards have ever been, making this unit undesirable for any map and composition considering their time and resource cost.

His talents getting up to level 15 should be reworked as well. Lightning Surge and Wrath of the Highlord feel so mediocre.
Primal igniters need aoe damage, not buffs armor etc. what’s the point of a flame unit when no splash damage?
Gene mutation is hard to understand if some units are glowing and others are bigger in size. How are you supposed to micro with that? How are you supposed to see at first glance which unit does what? I don’t have a solution, though.
05/15/2019 05:21 AMPosted by Boutneus
Primal igniters need aoe damage, not buffs armor etc. what’s the point of a flame unit when no splash damage?

But they do have AOE already. It is said in their description.
05/14/2019 12:40 PMPosted by Dark
i would invite you to compare the hero unit dehaka to the hero unit zeratul and then you might be able to answer your own question.

I won't argue that Dehaka is better as hero, buuuut. On which comparison? On normal brutal map? Or on hard mutation? Zera has invisibility and this gives him a lot of advantage. I won't list all of mutators, but for example Dehaka better only against propagators. And when comes time with void rifts or some invisible mines - Zera is better.

I know that it's wrong to compare things one by one. But i'm mentioning the whole power lvl of both commanders. Army is probably on the same lvl of both commanders. Won't you argue with that? Especially that air forces in most cases are the bigger threat and Zera's immortals are too OP for this.
Let's go further. Heroes are almost at the same lvl (arguable). Top panel is better in Zera. With enough of minerals you can spam voidrays by cd. Monoliths are way better than greater wurms because of stun. Especially on mutators. 3rd skill maybe doubthfull aaand yellow avatar, which can divide by zero the most strong enemies forces. Of course monoliths not only better, they are even unlimited.
And returning to normal wurms (or defense potential). Wurms haven't any damage upgrade, any shield or any save/heal. And if you're thinking that they are ok (cause you're completely ignored my arguments, i guess - yes). So i'll ask you an opposite questions:
Tu-dudu-dum *melody from Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?*
1. How many players do you met in game which played only by wurms, like Zera-photon does? (especially if count that you're thinking that Dehaka is better as hero)
And how many of them do you meet in mutations? I'll mention that, cause the most hardest mutation Memorable Boss was better passed by Zera's photons among all commanders.
2. How many maps are fit for wurms gameplay? I can name only one - Obilivion Express. Because only on that map their breath-ability not wasted and Dehaka can easily kill the armies, and let the wurms do their job.
If you'll say that 80% (or at least 50%, but not ~5% or something) of Dehaka gamers like to play by wurms and their killcount/map_pass_efficiency are better than yours (with some proofs maybe, cause words means nothing) In that case i'll be silent. But on my game experience i met no one. Especially on mutations.
Here i can add that Dehaka has not been the leader of mutations for a long time. But i don't think it's needed.
Very well done, I like these changes, the change to the tyrannozor and the mothership(i am very, VERY giddy about the mothership changes) definitely shows attention to our wishes!
The main issue i'm seeing everyone has is that we have yet to receive a response to our opinions on the stukov changes. I personally am fine with them, barring the banshee damage nerf and am hoping the bunker nerf is reduced to 5 supply instead of 6 as a good middle grounds. As a few people have stated, we'd like a seperate rally point for stukov's overlords, as other zerg have access to. A thing i've seen pop up in the forums from time to time is a wish for more...unique portraits for the infested, such as the scv, diamondback, and liberator. While this isn't necessary, it'd be a much loved addition, if you ever have the time to work on that!
Another small quality of life change, for dehaka, would be the removal of supply cost on primal wurms, so they could be an effective mineral dump when supply capped, as i've seen others point out.
Overall, i'm fairly pleased with the advent of more communication, and I hope you begin addressing us directly, engaging in discussion alongside us, if you can, mister Monk(or of course any other devs)!
Hi Monk,

thank you for your effort in balancing coop. I like the changes. I have to say I was secretly hoping for some other changes to impalers, as I think their dmg is good and I believe their biggest problem is their mobility, which is severly limiting their use. I believe some speed upgrade for zerglings might open some interesting (well, maybe more like fancy) gameplay options, as they do not require gas and might be fun option as mineral dump. I love the high ground vision for Dehaka! For me, this is the single best change after added psionic tag to terran units.

However, I fear the changes made in mastery section doesnt change anything. evene on fastest maps, it is always crucial to use Gleivig and Murvar to push certain objectives / enemy bases. Gleivig is arguably the strongest offensive colldown in coop. Every single fire breath is equal to novas airstrike and this is simply too strong to be ignored, even if it means only 2-3 more uses with full mastery. Murvar is the same case. Primal wurms just cant compete with dmg output and pushing ability of Gleivig and Murvar, especially with Gleivigs short deep tunnel cooldown.

Gene mutation mastery without being at least +15% additive is still to weak for me and devour buff duration doesnt change anything for me even. This is just my opinion, as I have been playing Dehaka frequently since start. I love this commander and I love to see some ballance changes, but this doesnt open more option in my eyes. Maybe im wrong, just my 5 cents.
Agree on overall good but needed
- Glevig nerfs
- Bigger mutation and duration masteries
Thanks for making Alarak's Mothership stronger. :)
Adding psi tag on ravens and SVs is honestly an overkill. People would say that terran lacks those units compared to protoss and zerg, but let me ask you this : whats the flavour of playing against a given race if they blow up all the same? Of course there are differences besides that given point, but I think Dehaka hero unit didnt need any buffs. Lore doesnt support this change either.
05/15/2019 03:32 PMPosted by MountainKing
I think Dehaka hero unit didnt need any buffs

I highly suspect after the overreaction from the community (as usual xD) over Stukov's revamp, some of the nerf-type of changes for Dehaka may have taken a reconsider/back seat.

There are some real nice quality changes that were definitely needed, such as Level 10 high ground vision, Tyran regen, Terran psionic tags (I know we disagree on this one lol), etc.
05/15/2019 03:32 PMPosted by MountainKing
Adding psi tag on ravens and SVs is honestly an overkill. People would say that terran lacks those units compared to protoss and zerg, but let me ask you this : whats the flavour of playing against a given race if they blow up all the same? Of course there are differences besides that given point, but I think Dehaka hero unit didnt need any buffs. Lore doesnt support this change either.

I support this change
05/14/2019 01:56 PMPosted by Moraeth
So... still not a worthwhile mastery. Would probably be better if it was additive instead of multiplicative.


I think you look at it the wrong way. We are talking about Probability here so the number needs to be viewed from two angles.

Without mastery, you got 20% to get a muta.
With old Mastery, it's 26%.
New Mastery, 32%.

That means
20% of getting muta = 80% of Not Getting Muta

With the new mastery, it became 32% - 68%.

If we turn it to fraction.

It's an increase from 1/5 (zero mastery) to 1/3 (new mastery) compare to 1/4 (old mastery). The chance of NOT getting a muta when from 4/5 (no mastery) to 2/3 (new mastery). That's very huge.
I'm really liking this rework for Dehaka and the one for Alarak's Mothership, its looking really good
05/15/2019 04:56 PMPosted by FearrWhalins
05/15/2019 03:32 PMPosted by MountainKing
I think Dehaka hero unit didnt need any buffs

I highly suspect after the overreaction from the community (as usual xD) over Stukov's revamp, some of the nerf-type of changes for Dehaka may have taken a reconsider/back seat.

There are some real nice quality changes that were definitely needed, such as Level 10 high ground vision, Tyran regen, Terran psionic tags (I know we disagree on this one lol), etc.

Well, the high ground vision makes sense, since he can cliffwalk like a colossus and any buffs to his units (except for mutas/guardians/SHs)are welcome. But psi tag isnt a QoL change, its a buff. Regardless, I like the revamp, even if I've listed things I dont like, which is the raven/SV change. The rest is welcome, of course.
Great Dehaka buffs, but most importantly...
“COMMENCING BLOODSHED!”

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