What's the counter to critical mass muta?

Protoss Discussion
I'm talking opponent just masses nothing but mutas. No roach, no lings, no nothing, just pure muta. They have splash damage, so they rip through stalkers and phoenix. I'm talking 59 freaking mutas I counted on the replay. He kept me in my base with muta harass so I couldn't prevent it from happening. Do we have any units in the game that can counter large quantities of mutas? We have no anit-air splash damage units, so they will always win.
Thanks
NOTHING! NOTHING AT ALL! WE ALL DIE!... in theory craft though it would be ht and archons
But HT are too slow for the very fast mutas, and I need to leave them in my base as sitting ducks while waiting for the mutas to hopefully not just do a flyby and pick them off in 1 fell swoop. 59 mutas damn near 1 shot a nexus, let alone a few fragile HT's trying to power up. lol
3 gate FE or whatever FE you prefer and get hallucination right after WG research, hallucinate a phoenix and use it to scout Zergs base, if you see a very quick spire or no tech buildings or units 6 gate +1 push and he is dead no matter what he does. cut probes at about 48 and chrono forge.
I'll try. I just know he was harassing me with mutas before I could get back in to see a spire, and once he started, it was all over, cause he just kept poking, losing maybe 1-2 mutas and retreating. Again, he built nothing past his little failed 6 pool except for mutas. Was tough sledding, cause once the harass started, I was locked in my base from that point on. I suicided my ground army to kill his expos while I had to leave my stalkers in my bases to fend off the mf'ers.
Oh, and thanks guys for not being elitist pricks :) :cheers:
I'll try the really early push with the hallucinated phoenix. It was on one of the huge new 4 player maps, so I had to travel FAR to get to him, while his mutas kicked it into light speed to get to my base.
3stargate, if your confident hes massing up for all muta and pump out phoenix
When he hits a muta critical mass, you can no longer move out. You have to try and keep the muta numbers down before it comes to that. If he has 59 mutas out, you're outright screwed - there's no new unit you could possibly make that would turn the game around.

You need to keep the muta number down. People say blink stalkers, but you still can't move out of your base with blink stalkers since the Mutas just come right back. If your opponent is investing heavily into mutas, you need to try and match with phoenix. With perfect micro, phoenix don't get hit by mutas, and though no micro is perfect, your phoenixes will attack more often than the mutas.

Control the muta ball. If you see muta, react with a few stalkers. If it's clear he's mass producing nothing but muta, throw down 2-3 stargates. Yes, it's a heavy investment, 3 stargates, but if your opponent is investing heavily you have to be able to match. As long as you constantly harass the muta ball with good micro while making more and more phoenixes, you'll be able to slow/stop their production and make other things instead.
I started pumping out phoenix, as well as my blink stalkers, which had +2 attack.
Problem is that phoenix, while a hard counter to muta, don't do squat to them in large numbers because mutas do splash damage and phoenix don't. So if there are more than like 6-10 mutas, phoenix are about as worthless as trying to attack mutas with zealots. lol
But please keep these comments coming. I'm gonna try the hallucination and quick push if I see spire next time. I'll try every reasonable counter you guys throw at me
a simpler hard counter would be 3 gate, stargate; save some chrono for boosting out pheoni. throw in a void, some lifts and you have some very brutal pressure to force heavy spore colonies.

your early air dominance (god knows you shouldn't lose anything til they hit hydras) should dictate hydras, and typically eliminate mutalisks from the game. you're a bit weak to early roach pressure, so be sure to keep up appropriate gateway/wg production.

also, you're going to HAVE to do some damage or you'll end up losing to hydras before you can produce a counter, as without some economic losses the zerg will pump enough of them to overrun your gateway production.
When he hits a muta critical mass, you can no longer move out. You have to try and keep the muta numbers down before it comes to that. If he has 59 mutas out, you're outright screwed - there's no new unit you could possibly make that would turn the game around.

You need to keep the muta number down. People say blink stalkers, but you still can't move out of your base with blink stalkers since the Mutas just come right back. If your opponent is investing heavily into mutas, you need to try and match with phoenix. With perfect micro, phoenix don't get hit by mutas, and though no micro is perfect, your phoenixes will attack more often than the mutas.

Control the muta ball. If you see muta, react with a few stalkers. If it's clear he's mass producing nothing but muta, throw down 2-3 stargates. Yes, it's a heavy investment, 3 stargates, but if your opponent is investing heavily you have to be able to match. As long as you constantly harass the muta ball with good micro while making more and more phoenixes, you'll be able to slow/stop their production and make other things instead.

So kinda what the guy above you said, but just not blindly doing it. So basically, I merge all you guy's ideas. Hallucinate phoenix, if I see early spire, lay 2-3 stargates and pump out 3-4 phoenix to poke his base and pray that he doesn't go nothing but muta, and if he does, just keep poking him and poking him till I build up critical mass phoenix, or he gives up on the muta idea, which then turns game back into normal stuff.
Good info. Lots of help guys. Keep it up please. Brain is in overdrive.
Nothing. They're like Voidrays before they were nerfed into the ground. The only way to deal with them is to scout it and kill them before they get enough. Basically, to 5 or 6 gate all-in them right as or right before their first batch of mutas spawn.

I don't know how you could nerf Voidrays and leave Mutas alone anymore. When storm was still a viable late-game counter, sure. Now? They're almost in identical situations in the meta-game.

Before, HTs did well enough in combination with heavily upgrade blink stalkers (and thus we have the (Z)IST composition). Now, it's really mass Phoenixes and only mass Phoenixes when Mutas are already in good numbers. Before then, you can either open Phoenixes to discourage Mutas or 3-gate sentry expand into a 5-6 gate all-in once you scout mutas.

HTs now have to find a corner of your constantly harassed and scouted base where they can just sit for 44 seconds just to get 1 storm on a Muta ball that will quickly dodge out of it. If they're not sitting in a fortress of stalkers, sentries, and cannons, the Mutas can just periodically dart in, one shot a bunch of templars because they're too weak to tank hits and too slow to run, and then just continue harassing. Unlike BW when we had air splash from Corsairs, far better Archons with better splash, better storm, and even though they were the worst option of the BW bunch, dragoons are still > stalkers. Mutas are just ridiculously uncontested right now.
If he stops mutas and I have like 10 phoenix, or more, would it be better to tech switch to robo for colossus/immortals, or lay down a fleet beacon and bring carrier play/mother ship for cloak against the strong hydras? 300/200 for Col or 350/250 for carrier, which I'll already be halfway to. Probably colossus cause they are singly better vs hydra, huh? Can't even use mothership void anymore to split army, cause I'm afraid of what an invincible hydra army will do to me for 1.5 seconds.
Nothing. They're like Voidrays before they were nerfed into the ground. The only way to deal with them is to scout it and kill them before they get enough. Basically, to 5 or 6 gate all-in them right as or right before their first batch of mutas spawn.

I don't know how you could nerf Voidrays and leave Mutas alone anymore. When storm was still a viable late-game counter, sure. Now? They're almost in identical situations in the meta-game.

Before, HTs did well enough in combination with heavily upgrade blink stalkers (and thus we have the (Z)IST composition). Now, it's really mass Phoenixes and only mass Phoenixes.

HTs now have to find a corner of your constantly harassed and scouted base where they can just sit for 44 seconds just to get 1 storm on a Muta ball that will quickly dodge out of it. If they're not sitting in a fortress of stalkers, sentries, and cannons, the Mutas can just periodically dart in, one shot a bunch of templars because they're too weak to tank hits and too slow to run, and then just continue harassing. Unlike BW when we had air splash from Corsairs, far better Archons with better splash, better storm, and even though they were the worst option of the BW bunch, dragoons are still > stalkers. Mutas are just ridiculously uncontested right now.

The last 3 zergs in a row have gone mass mutas. It's like they've figured out that we have nothing to combat it, cause really, what would you rather do if a zerg and you knew that Colossus is really the only viable T3 path, make corruptors which can't attack ground, or mutas which do splash and attack air/ground. I think because of that, zerg is blindly massing nothing but mutas, and we'll see it a whole lot more often. Like I said, my last 3 zerg games have been nothing but mass mutas, and that's against platinum too (I'm silver)
If he fails his 6 pool, don't let them get mutas. 4 gate will do the trick
Phoenix can fire on the move and are faster then mutas so in equal numbers you will win. If he tries to chase your phoenixes you move away and your phoenixes autofire, if he tries to run away you follow and autofire. If you want to stay and fight and he decides to also, guardian shield owns muta bounce damage.

If he switches to hydra your phoenixes aren't useless, you can pick off overlords and harrass his mineral lines/queens still as you start building up your deathball.
You need HTs if they reach that number. HT's and as many Phoenixes as you can get. Soften them with Storms and keep on them. Once you kill the Muta ball you've won if you just do a push with Void Rays and Gateway units afterward.

59 Mutas, though, is a big problem. You're not going to see 59 Mutas with no decent counters fielded already and win. At that point you know you got way outplayed is all.
03/29/2011 11:41 PMPosted by BigPete
The last 3 zergs in a row have gone mass mutas. It's like they've figured out that we have nothing to combat it, cause really, what would you rather do if a zerg and you knew that Colossus is really the only viable T3 path,


Lol as a lot of other people have been saying, it's impossible to move out of your base once they get 20+.

They can just ignore you as you move out and one shot your mineral lines and STILL have time to come back and defend their expos... not to mention they'll have 9,000 speedlings as a mineral dump.

I used to have major issues with this... especially on scrap station ( /shudder).

But yeah, you just have to kill them before they get 20. Or less honestly.

Unless you've been chronoing out phoenixes off of 3 SG, have blink stalkers with cannons at each mineral line, and possibly archons, you just can't keep up with their production if they decide to spam mutas.

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