1 gate FE vs 3 rax all in

General Discussion
Ok me and a friend are having a debate about this. He says that if you 3 rax all-in you auto lose to a protoss going 1 gate FE, and that they'd know they can do that since they scouted it. He says just FF correctly and you win.

IMO it's too easy for terran to trick a protoss into thinking they're going 1/1/1, since you can delay your additional barracks to drop a bunker like in the 1/1/1, and only put marines in the bunker to hide the fact that you've got marauders. This would force the protoss to make a robo bay and more stalkers than sentries and zealots, so you can move out with a big 3 rax (slightly delayed) stim timing push and just crush everything.

He says that you can scout the difference between the bunkers or marine timings or whatever, but I told him that as long as you have a bunker, the protoss would (at the very least) need to sack a probe to see if there's: a bunker/marauders/conc shell/nothing at all cause it's a totally different build (lol) and even with this, a bunker with marines would prevent a stalker from doing any real damage or gaining and scouting information.

He didnt specify what kind of gateway timings you'd have, but he seems to believe that you can afford an expansion and several more gateways as well as a good amount of sentries on one base probe-cut income, and then, even if you could do that, manage to kill off a 3 rax push by getting completely 100% perfect FF's all the time and somehow having your sentry-heavy army have the firepower to actually KILL the units you've trapped.

I still think that at the very least you'd lost the nexus, and this whole scenario would be a coin flip anyway since you dont know if the terran is going 1/1/1 or 3 rax, which means you'd likely need to get a robo and twilight council (council isn't all that necessary, but to hold off a 3 rax having chargelots is invaluable) which would set you back on your defense against a 3 rax far more than delaying the additional barracks slightly with a bunker would. after the T kills off your expo, if he's sniped enough of your sentries, he can push up your ramp or back off, expand, drop some tech and push out with a MMM/viking/ghost ball a little while later. Meanwhile you're stuck on gateway tech after just losing a significant army chunk as well as your expansion and several probes.

I actually play random, by the way, but I still believe terran is overpowered a tad, mainly vs toss.



So i'd like some answers, which will win, does it depend on perfect micro on a map with a 1 FF-wide choke to your natural (there are none...?) or is it auto-win for one of the races?
I'm not really going to bother with people who base it off of anything but strict math and/or pro games, or anyone who isnt high masters or above, where it really matters.

EDIT: How exactly would 2 rax FE be harder to deal with? Less units, it may come earlier, but with 3 rax you can just attack earlier and keep on pressure until stim is done... right?
bump
bump. again. I shall not be defeated!
09/05/2011 12:07 PMPosted by gTxOverZero
bump. again. I shall not be defeated!


paragraphs help
I didn't really read all that you wrote, but a 1gate FE should be fine vs a 3rax. Its only the 2rax that the 1gate Fe has trouble with sometimes.
09/05/2011 12:09 PMPosted by deathtrance
bump. again. I shall not be defeated!


paragraphs help
Oh god please split it into paragraphs. or add a tl;dr or something.
Depends on the map

No way Toss is going to hold off a 3rax on a map with a large ramp
Depends on the map

No way Toss is going to hold off a 3rax on a map with a large ramp


this. on maps with small ramps, 3 rax is very easy to hold off my just going standard 3 gate robo and getting a couple quick immortals. On maps with small chokes, a fast expand and some good FF's will also own a 3 rax.
Be leery of anyone stating all you need is perfect FF's to stop it.

FF's are missed all the time by people like Huk and MC so the rest of us should expect to as well. Holding off 3 rack aggression against a FE is tough without having perfect micro. Wouldn't count on it.
So could someone please explain what in the 1 gate FE build order allows you to hold off early terran aggression/timing pushes?
09/05/2011 02:17 PMPosted by wPsCALLMEOCT
As far as i read the tittle i noticed something was wrong, then saw you are platinum.


Yes, instead of contributing to the topic and educating lower league players, let's just insult them....
09/05/2011 02:17 PMPosted by wPsCALLMEOCT
As far as i read the tittle i noticed something was wrong, then saw you are platinum.

LOL YOU'RE SILVER! Hahahaha...
Not to mention, your grammar sucks !@# and I can barely understand what you were trying to say.
1 g FE has a slight chance to hold off a 3 rax but not a 3 rax all in
(meaning the terran pulls ALL their scvs)

Force fields will only delay the push slightly, even if they're placed perfectly.

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