Zerg does not outproduce other races

General Discussion
10/09/2011 03:13 PMPosted by DesrtPhoenix
If i have the money to create so may expensive units at once then im pretty sure i would win the game if i created anything. People say its rediculous that zerg can create those units if they wanted to but in reality 10 ultralisk is 3000 minerals and 2000 gas. If i have that much money saved up and your just sitting on your !@# its kinda your fault. It sounds like i won that game based off of better macro than anything else and it dosnt really matter what i create at that point.

+1
10/09/2011 03:49 PMPosted by CraftMaster
If i have the money to create so may expensive units at once then im pretty sure i would win the game if i created anything. People say its rediculous that zerg can create those units if they wanted to but in reality 10 ultralisk is 3000 minerals and 2000 gas. If i have that much money saved up and your just sitting on your !@# its kinda your fault. It sounds like i won that game based off of better macro than anything else and it dosnt really matter what i create at that point.


Racial mechanics =/= skill, please stop poisoning the newer players with these lies.

Also

Zerg makes 6 workers every 45 seconds if they dedicate all but 1 larvae for an overlord. Toss makes 4 workers and is also making military in that time.


Just, wow. You stay on one base all game long? And the Toss starts on two? Mind = Blown. Also, X amount of drones will ALWAYS come out faster than 2 probes (per Nexus, assuming chrono)
It all comes down to the fact that in the time I can make 1 SCV, you might have made 20. This goes for military units, also.
10/09/2011 03:49 PMPosted by CraftMaster
If i have the money to create so may expensive units at once then im pretty sure i would win the game if i created anything. People say its rediculous that zerg can create those units if they wanted to but in reality 10 ultralisk is 3000 minerals and 2000 gas. If i have that much money saved up and your just sitting on your !@# its kinda your fault. It sounds like i won that game based off of better macro than anything else and it dosnt really matter what i create at that point.

+1


If I had that many resources, I would have a very hard time trying to spend it in time after I get free supply after losing my 200 army. Don't be silly. Those ultras come a lot faster than anything I will be able to make.
since Zerg have a faster army, easier worker production and better map awareness it is far far easier and safer for a zerg to take another base, since EVEN IF they dont get any workers there it still works as an army producer while terran and toss are behund 400 minerals

as a result Zerg have a better economy
as a result zerg have more production
as a result zerg produce more
as a result zerg mass faster
as a result zerg pool larvae
as a result they remax again faster[/quote]

All fast units that zerg have get smashed in straight up mid-high supply battles. I believe you mean faster worker production, seeing as something as simple as making workers or military is a game ending decision before the 8 min mark, which i would argue makes it harder. As far as the 400 minerals thing goes, 1 expand plus 3 gates and cyber core = 1050 minerals. 1 hatchery, queen, spawning pool, roach den, 1 ovie(everyone forgets that hatch only grants 2 supply) = 950

So the difference between a zerg expanding and a toss expanding is 4 lings, or 1 roach.

Yes, and why do you deserve to lose? Because they outproduce the other races and can produce WAY faster armies than their TP counterparts can if left un harassed because all of their units come from larvae.


No you deserve to lose because the greater econ usually wins the game. Derp. Zerg can make the fastest econ. I already said that. But if you LET them you deserve to lose. Because the only way they can make that huge econ is to sacrifice military. If a Zerg is building military at all he doesn't get that econ advantage. *cough mules*

It all comes down to the fact that in the time I can make 1 SCV, you might have made 20. This goes for military units, also


No. This means you didn't make enough military production structures. I've played plenty of games again T or P who remax pretty damn fast because they know to have enough Gates/Rax or whatever to reproduce an army with good speed. The gates:base ratio is good building up to the late game. But once the late game hits and people start banking minerals you need to drop extra Gates/rax because you're not limited by resources. You're limited by structures.

The only real thing you can say is that Zerg have less investment for they're production capabilities. If that seems unfair to you...switch to Zerg? The races are different. Get used to it. But this military outproduction stuff just isn't valid. Maybe Zerg gets 200/200 by the time T or P get 180 or 190...but again...I think we all know who has the stronger army in that case.
In early game, nearly all your production capacity goes to Drones, and the strict minimum to units and defense. Once you got your economy rolling, ALL your production capacity GOES to army.

The only moment you're truly vulnerable is when you're building up your economy. Once your economy is rolling, there's no way the other race can hope to match your production...

Do you even play other games? It's common knowledge that spending the strict minimum for defense while focusing all your energy on economy is the way to go... unless you're planing to end it quick by using strong timing push.


Correction: Zerg outproduces other races in worker count ONLY. That's a pretty gosh darn big difference than what you're saying. And if you leave Zerg alone for 15 minutes...like he said, you deserve to lose.

since Zerg have a faster army, easier worker production and better map awareness it is far far easier and safer for a zerg to take another base, since EVEN IF they dont get any workers there it still works as an army producer while terran and toss are behund 400 minerals

as a result Zerg have a better economy
as a result zerg have more production
as a result zerg produce more
as a result zerg mass faster
as a result zerg pool larvae
as a result they remax again faster


10/09/2011 03:43 PMPosted by wiGGles
That's why a Zerg can be at 190 when a Terran or Toss is only between 110 and 140, depending on how they're teching?


a 110 protoss army with no upgrades will beat a 2,2 upgraded max zerg army with almost no casulties!(unless your army comp dosent have collosi[or you did get mass collosi and we went mass muta :p]) No matter how fast we remax that protoss death ball will only get bigger. In my experience (Last season when I was in Plat) the only way I could ever kill a 100 food Protoss death ball was by bulding a random hatchery in the corner of the map and nydasing my aponents base right before he attacked so I could kill all of his buildings before he found my hidden hatch.
Zerg definitely don't outproduce. That would imply zerg produces more. Zerg produces faster, but that doesn't necessarily mean more. If the economies of the players are the same then they're going to produce the same amount of units value-wise regardless of who has what and by what time. The ultralisk example was a good extreme point.

This being said, I tend to see a lot of barracks and gateways in my games. The other two races, by far, are not at any disadvantage when it comes to unit production. In fact, in the very beginning of the game I'd say everyone is on equal footing. Once the zerg has the amount of drones and OLs it needs, then you start to see a troop production speed advantage, but not a momment before then.
It's just the racial differences. The ability to drone hard is great and all, though it leaves you open to attacks because you sacrifice army; this simple point is the core of TvZ mindset in attempting to force Zerglings early (cannot comment on PvZ, though I've heard that it's not uncommon to have 60 drones to 40 probes at the mid-game).

Larva timings are complicated, but that's what it comes down to. If you keep their economy low (very difficult, but still), you can "out-produce" a Zerg; not in number of units considering how inexpensive Zerglings are, but in actual viability and power.

EDIT - Now that I think about it, Zerg operates very similar to Warp Gates. You can choose to make more Warp Gates (larva), and what units to get when, only the Zerg's economy also relies on these Warp Gates. If you take Day9's newer theory on building a bunch of Warp Gates rather than an army that you may not use at that moment and having two giant warp-ins once they start to move out, the similarities between Zerg and Protoss in particular become much closer.
10/09/2011 04:04 PMPosted by RoiDRaGE
The OP has no idea what hes talking about. The next time I produce 22 voidrays in 1 min, let me know.


*Counter - arguement*If i have the money to create so may expensive units at once then im pretty sure i would win the game if i created anything. People say its rediculous that zerg can create those units if they wanted to but in reality 10 ultralisk is 3000 minerals and 2000 gas. If i have that much money saved up and your just sitting on your !@# its kinda your fault. It sounds like i won that game based off of better macro than anything else and it dosnt really matter what i create at that point.
10/09/2011 04:04 PMPosted by RoiDRaGE
The OP has no idea what hes talking about. The next time I produce 22 voidrays in 1 min, let me know.


The next time Zerg can create an army as powerful as 22 voids in one minute that the opponent can't defend...I'll show you what you did wrong and why you deserved to lose regardless.
10/09/2011 04:15 PMPosted by DesrtPhoenix
The OP has no idea what hes talking about. The next time I produce 22 voidrays in 1 min, let me know.


*Counter - arguement*If i have the money to create so may expensive units at once then im pretty sure i would win the game if i created anything. People say its rediculous that zerg can create those units if they wanted to but in reality 10 ultralisk is 3000 minerals and 2000 gas. If i have that much money saved up and your just sitting on your !@# its kinda your fault. It sounds like i won that game based off of better macro than anything else and it dosnt really matter what i create at that point.


The entire point is that you can. It is unrealistic to have 30 stargates built in order to build 30 VRs at once. It is not unrealistic to have 30 larvae piled end game and produce 30 mutas at once.

Zerg was made to outproduce the other two races, that is how it works, no sense in arguing it.
10/09/2011 04:19 PMPosted by GrimZ


*Counter - arguement*If i have the money to create so may expensive units at once then im pretty sure i would win the game if i created anything. People say its rediculous that zerg can create those units if they wanted to but in reality 10 ultralisk is 3000 minerals and 2000 gas. If i have that much money saved up and your just sitting on your !@# its kinda your fault. It sounds like i won that game based off of better macro than anything else and it dosnt really matter what i create at that point.


The entire point is that you can. It is unrealistic to have 30 stargates built in order to build 30 VRs at once. It is not unrealistic to have 30 larvae piled end game and produce 30 mutas at once.

Zerg was made to outproduce the other two races, that is how it works, no sense in arguing it.


It is however unrealistic for me to have 3000+ resources stockpiled. If i am sincerely that far ahead of another player then like i said, im winning no matter what i produce. Everyone thinks its redic cuz we stock up that much larvae...but they forget our drones collect just as fast as theirs does, and thats what's limiting us. Thats why end game you see zerg with a ton of extra larvae but in the first 5 minutes of the game a zerg player wont float more than 2(and even then thats bad macro)


The entire point is that you can. It is unrealistic to have 30 stargates built in order to build 30 VRs at once. It is not unrealistic to have 30 larvae piled end game and produce 30 mutas at once.

Zerg was made to outproduce the other two races, that is how it works, no sense in arguing it.


But there is sense in having 15 Rax up endgame to produce 30 marines which eat 30 mutas. Or 15 Gates up that make 30 units before zerg army gets across map etc etc. I don't really want to debate whether or not Zerg can remax "first". I guess my whole point in this thread is just that there's nothing wrong with it. People who QQ about Zerg OP because of remaxing aren't building enough production. Period.


The entire point is that you can. It is unrealistic to have 30 stargates built in order to build 30 VRs at once. It is not unrealistic to have 30 larvae piled end game and produce 30 mutas at once.

Zerg was made to outproduce the other two races, that is how it works, no sense in arguing it.


It is however unrealistic for me to have 3000+ resources stockpiled. If i am sincerely that far ahead of another player then like i said, im winning no matter what i produce. Everyone thinks its redic cuz we stock up that much larvae...but they forget our drones collect just as fast as theirs does, and thats what's limiting us. Thats why end game you see zerg with a ton of extra larvae but in the first 5 minutes of the game a zerg player wont float more than 2(and even then thats bad macro)


Are you talking about production capacity or the ability to burn resource quickly?

Zerg can out-produce both in workers and army, just not both at the same time (not early on anyway). That's why they focus on economy early on, so they can convert all their production capacity to army production.

Zerg "out-produce" in that sense. They do it better than the 2 other races. If they focus on drones, no other races can match it. If they focus on army, no other races can match it.

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