Warp mechanic

General Discussion
Most people don't seem to like it. Plenty of time until HotS release Blizzard. How about you redesign toss to not have it?

Chop chop
Most people don't seem to like it. Plenty of time until HotS release Blizzard. How about you redesign toss to not have it?

Chop chop


I'm sorry, you mistyped... let me fix that for you.

"Most terran/zerg don't seem to like it. Please remove it from toss so that they have far less mobility options."
Huh? Warp Gate is an amazing mechanic. It is an economic boost, putting units on the field about a minute earlier than Gateways. It protects expensive units from being intercepted and lost (rally point syndrome). The way it's designed, it is heavily weighted towards high risk offense and death ball spam. Pretty much every Protoss timing push uses Warp Gates in some way.

If anything WG is too good, and the core units of Protoss suffer as a result.
I'm sorry, you mistyped... let me fix that for you.

"Most terran/zerg don't seem to like it. Please remove it from toss so that they have far less mobility options."


Um, no, smart Protoss probably hate it more than Terran and Zerg ever will.

And as for removing Warp-gate, it's not going to happen because it's like single-child status to the developers.
Please don't remove WG, I love the sound it makes while warping and how cool it looks
I'm sorry, you mistyped... let me fix that for you.

"Most terran/zerg don't seem to like it. Please remove it from toss so that they have far less mobility options."


Um, no, smart Protoss probably hate it more than Terran and Zerg ever will.

And as for removing Warp-gate, it's not going to happen because it's like single-child status to the developers.


really? the only reason Warp tech could be annoying for a protoss is the fact u cant que up units, which a good player shouldnt have to do anyways. unless ur saying good protoss dont like it bc they dont like to have to fight against it, which is stupid bc a good player should win most of those encounteres being that they are good. so that leaves i guess that it leads to boring 4 gate required openings which isnt a problem with warp gate tech and more a problem with current meta game balance which is being fixed, from what i have heard the new restriction to ramp warpins provides a way to opt out of 4gate v 4gate in pvp so why is there still a problem?


Um, no, smart Protoss probably hate it more than Terran and Zerg ever will.

And as for removing Warp-gate, it's not going to happen because it's like single-child status to the developers.


really? the only reason Warp tech could be annoying for a protoss is the fact u cant que up units, which a good player shouldnt have to do anyways. unless ur saying good protoss dont like it bc they dont like to have to fight against it, which is stupid bc a good player should win most of those encounteres being that they are good. so that leaves i guess that it leads to boring 4 gate required openings which isnt a problem with warp gate tech and more a problem with current meta game balance which is being fixed, from what i have heard the new restriction to ramp warpins provides a way to opt out of 4gate v 4gate in pvp so why is there still a problem?


The reason is it was a terrible design decision counter to common RTS logic and forever changed how Protoss plays for the worse.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3196341987?page=1
I just dont like when they use it to instantly summon in a wave of blink stalkers to thwart harassment outright.

I also feel it removes defenders advantage from the defender.. But thats a huge debate ive seen done to death, and no Toss will ever admit it, somehow.
The reason is it was a terrible design decision counter to common RTS logic and forever changed how Protoss plays for the worse.
That's a bit harsh, don't you think? Warp Gate adds a whole new layer of tactical complexity to Protoss.
"Where should I place units?"
"Where do I need power most?"
"Can I surprise my opponent with deep striking units?"
"Should I leave Warp Gates ready for defense?"

All these are really cool things that a player HAS to think about. The only problem, as Warp Gate currently stands, is that the solution to these questions is always the same:
- 1-A, W-ZZZZSSSSS, Ctrl-1, 1-A. Rinse, Repeat.
That's a bit harsh, don't you think? Warp Gate adds a whole new layer of tactical complexity to Protoss.
"Where should I place units?"
"Where do I need power most?"
"Can I surprise my opponent with deep striking units?"
"Should I leave Warp Gates ready for defense?"



Also adds forgiveness...
"OH no im being harassed.. oh wait... *warp warp warp*"
"Oh no my army is about to lose this fight... Oh wait.. *warp in reinforcements RIGHT at the battle"


But yeah, I see what points you are making.. It does make the game cooler strategically, ill give ya that.
10/25/2011 05:23 AMPosted by Brian
The reason is it was a terrible design decision counter to common RTS logic and forever changed how Protoss plays for the worse.


I think this is unfair. It's both a unique advantage and a unique difficulty that protoss faces, in the sense that all of their gateway units have to be balanced around the mechanic, but it certainly seems to me like an integral part of the "protoss experience" at this point.

I think a lot of the arguments against it (for instance, that protoss gateway units are incredibly weak for their cost to balance out warping in) are exaggerated. Tournaments have shown that with good blink play stalkers can dominate the early and mid game. And this isn't the kind of "metagame development" that zerg and terran just have figured out for the races yet; blink micro is completely unique to the stalker (don't even try to bring up roach burrowing micro). And chargelots are apparently doing so well against terran that blizz has seen fit to give the race a whole new mechanic to counter them. So it doesn't seem like they are doing too badly for themselves.

Warpgate tech is one of the defining features of toss early game; removing it would be like removing the larva system. And it seems perfectly plausible that the game COULD be balanced around it (whether or not it currently is is open to debate).

I also feel it removes defenders advantage from the defender.. But thats a huge debate ive seen done to death, and no Toss will ever admit it, somehow.


It seems to me that this is only try in the very early game; this problem has been mitigated by the repeated nerfing of strategies like the fourgate by blizz. It also only refers to one aspect of the defender's advantage (reinforcements); the defender still has the advantage of defensive structures and geography.
10/25/2011 05:23 AMPosted by Brian
The reason is it was a terrible design decision counter to common RTS logic and forever changed how Protoss plays for the worse.


ok i read your essay, and I have a bit more respect for your position based on your obvious understanding of metagame progression. but i still don't completly agree with the conclusion your essay arrives at. you state that protoss have led the way in meta game progression as a response to their inherent design flaws. I would say they have lead the way through discovery of their inherent design strengths.

As you said the warp in machanic fundamentally destroys the major aspects of the defenders advantage in the early game. which is why protoss units are fundamentally economically inefficient in comparison to the t1 zerg and terran. bc otherwise z and t would stand no chance without a defender advantage. so by this logic we can assume that the t1 of each race is balenced bc though toss t1 is fundamentally weaker it is strengthened by the warp in mechanic

You go on to outline the various meta game changes that have occured so far as toss develop new strats and zerg and terran develop strats to counter those strats, but then u come to the fallicous conclusion that there are no more strats for toss to come up with and that t and z have both found effective means to destroy all of our current strats. I find both of those conclusion to be wrong. I believe that toss has plenty of options that they can use right now that are capable of winning. and i would assume espeacially with the soon to arrive expansion that there are many many many more strats for toss to discover.

the ebb and flow of meta game u describe is the essence of what makes this game great if toss could come up with one strat or even just a handful of strats that work every game then the game only relies on micro skill and stratagy is completely a moot point stratagy will always be changing and in an RTS the stratagy is the most important part. if it ever gets stale enough that everyone has to use a handfull of strats every game and only rely on micro skill to win games then i will quit. if i wanted to play a game based only on how well i can control the game i would play a FPS.

I just dont like when they use it to instantly summon in a wave of blink stalkers to thwart harassment outright.

I also feel it removes defenders advantage from the defender.. But thats a huge debate ive seen done to death, and no Toss will ever admit it, somehow.


Yeah... and I don't like how the Terran drop unit can stick around and quadruple the life of the forces that were dropped AND make stim damage free.

You can have warpgate when Toss gets a medivac!

Quit you QQ'ing. All races have advantages that the other races don't. If you want all the races to the same, go play C&C or something.

Things that Terran can do that the other races can't:
Wall in without having to destroy buildings to get out.
Scout any area of the map without risking anything
Medivacs
Tier 1 unit that beats tier 3 units.
Tier 1 unit that can shoot air and ground
Medivacs
Movable Command Center
Self defending Command Center
Able to mine minerals without a worker
Medivacs
All production buildings able to friggin FLY, including the command center!
All units may be repaired either through medivac or SCV (SCV's by either)
All buildings may be repaired
Ghost Snipe
Ghost EMP
Ghost Stealth
The only flying, attacking unit in the game with stealth
Medivacs...

The list goes on, but I think you get the idea.

As for "instantly summon in a wave of blink stalkers to thwart harassment outright."
How many units, marines and marauders, can 2 medivacs drop for harassment? (Eight Marines and Four Marauders) How many blink stalkers are needed to fight off eight stimmed marines and four stimmed marauders covered by two fully charged medivacs? Four? Eight? Twelve? For fun, let's assume it's 8. Of course, you must have a gateway for each unit you can "instantly summon" so if the answer is Eight stalkers to fight off 2 fully loaded medivacs of bio-drop then the Protoss player must have eight warpgates. No Toss player can support eight warpgates on one base AND have enough money sitting around to afford to warp in that many stalkers. I used eight because I've lost with 6. I've never had 8 gateways on one base and free 1000 minerals and 400 gas to test with. A Terran, by the way, can easily afford to make two medivacs plus the units to fill them AND have siege tanks guarding the walled in main, ON ONE BASE.

Yeah, stop QQ'ing!

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