Does terran really need new units like this?

General Discussion
Battle hellion:

Great, an easier way to counter my expensive upgrade chargelots and gas heavy archons with your cheap units
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbXBydTTLwM&feature=related

What am I supposed to counter this with?? replicant? nope, orable? nope, tempest? all this will be countered by the marines

Warhound:

An easier and more mobile way to take on my army
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=Ay4Q5QHIG88
What do I countered this with? chargelots like the thor? nope, you got the battle hellion, inmortals? nope, the warhound is a counter to the inmortal, tempest? nope, it has an AoE anti air, carriers? oh wait...

Shredder:

An even easier way to defend your expansion cheaply or main base so you can turtle even more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHgoJamjow4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV67mAvkeHU&feature=related

Air units to counter? well, my only air effective air unit will be the tempest and it's lategame also, so you're turtle is safe cause nothing else will get near it.

Imaging a shredder with a bunker behind, couple of siege tanks and a planetary fortress.
Add two vikings to the mineral line on patrol and you can't do much without heavy losses.

Zerg got some pretty good units, Protoss got lategame expensive units but terran got very strong and more versatile units.

Can't even imagine shredder drops on mineral line, makes my stupid expensive oracle mineral harrass seems useless.

Oh yes, the uberthor too, so Protoss used to have an end all kill all unit, the mothership, reason you could only have one, got nerf to the extend of just a BM unit, but Terran apparently needs an end all kill all unit.
You could always... wait til the game to comes out before you actually cry about imbalance.


By then it will be too late.
Remember they said nothing was final. They could end up sc@@!#!% all those units from MP and entirely new units if they want. Plus its still got at yearish of testing time (alphas/betas) before release. Anything can happen.
um....isn't now the best time to complain! the alpha stages so Blizzard can see trough other peoples reasoning how to improve the game balance.

Excuse my QQ, but I don't see how the new zerg and protoss units makes them more versatile like Terran, the new units are pretty much a fix to the weakness of WoL but they are no fix to the new terran units.

Also, Protoss and Zerg lost units but terran did not, you have a useless reaper, why not remove it, nope, let's give it regeneration HP and remove the attack building ability, because reapers were apparently massed to destroy building. Terran also regain the effective harrass unit they lost.

Imaging getting a bunch of reapers, early-mid game, protect your base with shredders and tanks, go destroy enemy mineral line with inmortal reapers, send main army on a direct attack and have a medivac on standby for a drop after reapers clean up.

what can I do to defend the reaper harrass? that arch thing were the building defends. ok, let use my energy, reaper pull back and regen... return, waste more energy, repeat and continue until I have no more energy.

The terran versatility still continues.

That's not how things work. You don't just go and tweak the alpha stages of a game because some gold player on the forums theorycrafted up some 4th grade level logic of how protoss is underpowered in the new game.


so, what do developers do on alpha stages then master terran?
um....isn't now the best time to complain! the alpha stages so Blizzard can see trough other peoples reasoning how to improve the game balance.

Excuse my QQ, but I don't see how the new zerg and protoss units makes them more versatile like Terran, the new units are pretty much a fix to the weakness of WoL but they are no fix to the new terran units.

Also, Protoss and Zerg lost units but terran did not, you have a useless reaper, why not remove it, nope, let's give it regeneration HP and remove the attack building ability, because reapers were apparently massed to destroy building. Terran also regain the effective harrass unit they lost.

Imaging getting a bunch of reapers, early-mid game, protect your base with shredders and tanks, go destroy enemy mineral line with inmortal reapers, send main army on a direct attack and have a medivac on standby for a drop after reapers clean up.

what can I do to defend the reaper harrass? that arch thing were the building defends. ok, let use my energy, reaper pull back and regen... return, waste more energy, repeat and continue until I have no more energy.

The terran versatility still continues.


The problem is very few people use reasoning on these forums, and virtually no one argues with actual logic or proof.

"Imagine this scenario happening..." isn't an argument, providing formulas and math proving that a certain race can get certain units out for no economic risk early in the game is an argument.
10/23/2011 11:41 AMPosted by Khobai
By then it will be too late.


This would be true if blizzard never updated their games with balance changes.

The point of these new units are to fill in gaps in races tech trees. At release, HotS will probably be unbalanced, but it has the potential to be way more balanced than WoL because blizzard has more to work with.

Rather than having to apply infestors like a bandaid across all of zergs midgame woes (for example) we now have a variety of units to begin taking over the roles the infestor has been forced to carry. Both terran and toss now have real, viable counter to mutalisks. Toss has a dedicated harassment unit. These are all good things. Whether or not these units' stat lines, at release, will be balanced is irrelevant; we now have a better foundation for a balanced game.

As for the OP, you're underestimating the role your new, beefed up air unit will play in changing the metagame. The tempest is apparently a pretty hard counter to vikings in its current form, meaning your colossi are going to be sticking around a lot longer. Against pure mech builds, you still have beefy immortals. Plus, you're getting access to units like infestors and tanks to help out with support.
there are a whole bunch of thread already talking about costs, range, supply, etc., that are quickly turn over into "QQ noob" why should I repeat a useless debate.

I'm trying to point out scenarios where the versatility of terran will continue dominant. I can think a lot of ways for terran to use their existing and new units against the other races but I can't think of much effective ways for the new units to be as versatile as terran.

recall to base with nexus... that's mainly to defend, the harrass option is viable buy 75 energy is a cripple to just harrass.
arch thing on nexus... could be use to make cheese more annoying, it's mainly to defend.
oracle/replicant/tempest, will be mid late game units that will be great units in conjunction, no doubt about it... if I can get to the late game first.

I believe at it's current state, the viking outranges the tempest.
um....isn't now the best time to complain! the alpha stages so Blizzard can see trough other peoples reasoning how to improve the game balance.

Excuse my QQ, but I don't see how the new zerg and protoss units makes them more versatile like Terran, the new units are pretty much a fix to the weakness of WoL but they are no fix to the new terran units.

Also, Protoss and Zerg lost units but terran did not, you have a useless reaper, why not remove it, nope, let's give it regeneration HP and remove the attack building ability, because reapers were apparently massed to destroy building. Terran also regain the effective harrass unit they lost.

Imaging getting a bunch of reapers, early-mid game, protect your base with shredders and tanks, go destroy enemy mineral line with inmortal reapers, send main army on a direct attack and have a medivac on standby for a drop after reapers clean up.

what can I do to defend the reaper harrass? that arch thing were the building defends. ok, let use my energy, reaper pull back and regen... return, waste more energy, repeat and continue until I have no more energy.

The terran versatility still continues.


The problem is very few people use reasoning on these forums, and virtually no one argues with actual logic or proof.

"Imagine this scenario happening..." isn't an argument, providing formulas and math proving that a certain race can get certain units out for no economic risk early in the game is an argument.


Actually that IS an argument, hypothetical reasoning is perfectly acceptable grounds for forming an argument. Arguments do not consist of 'formula and math' alone, as you so ignorantly put it. That would make an argument mathematics, not reasoning. There is absolutely nothing wrong with one stating, if this is the case, and this is the case, then x, when it is informed by fact, which the author of the thread more or less accomplished although informally.

Moreover, the author has sufficient information and fact from which to form an argument. While it is the case that the final game with the final specifications on units is not released, it is also true that the recently released information accounts for the current state of the game. As such, there is absolutely nothing wrong with arguing about the current state of the game as it does represent current facts about the game and facts can form the basis of arguments.

Were i you i would not make assertions if i did not know the meaning of the concepts i were employing.
just so you know... as of right now, the shredder CAN NOT BE USED with friendlies around.
This means...bunkers, seige tanks, vikings, marines, allied lings, etc etc.

i strongly suggest you take the time to read about each unit, from multiple sources, then wait for the beta to complain.
Terran has the most units --> give them three more

Zerg had the least units --> subtract one and give them two more

Protoss --> subtract two and add three


The terran versatility still continues.
Actually that IS an argument, hypothetical reasoning is perfectly acceptable grounds for forming an argument. Arguments do not consist of 'formula and math' alone, as you so ignorantly put it. That would make an argument mathematics, not reasoning. There is absolutely nothing wrong with one stating, if this is the case, and this is the case, then x, when it is informed by fact, which the author of the thread more or less accomplished although informally.

Moreover, the author has sufficient information and fact from which to form an argument. While it is the case that the final game with the final specifications on units is not released, it is also true that the recently released information accounts for the current state of the game. As such, there is absolutely nothing wrong with arguing about the current state of the game as it does represent current facts about the game and facts can form the basis of arguments.

Were i you i would not make assertions if i did not know the meaning of the concepts i were employing.


I'll admit my post was quickly written and didn't think much of it, after reading nothing but complaints since the finals last night I got frustrated.

When I talked about using some math again I'll admit it came off as some guy going "well if you can't show me a formula proving this then it doesn't count". There are too many variables to account for to try and use only math. I was more of saying that if you make up some scenario then you should think about how long it would take to realistically get to that point in a game and how much it costs.

For example in the OP one of the situations:

Shredder:

An even easier way to defend your expansion cheaply or main base so you can turtle even more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHgoJamjow4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV67mAvkeHU&feature=related

Air units to counter? well, my only air effective air unit will be the tempest and it's lategame also, so you're turtle is safe cause nothing else will get near it.

Imaging a shredder with a bunker behind, couple of siege tanks and a planetary fortress.
Add two vikings to the mineral line on patrol and you can't do much without heavy losses.


With the example of the terran sitting in a turtle in that kind of ideal setup the questions I thought were:
-How far into the game is it when the terran will likely have all this?
-If it can be done really quickly would that player have to cut a lot of
corners or sacrifice economy to get this super quick?
-What is the other player capable of having at the same time in a game

The other thing that was skipped over was the possibility of hurting the terran by attacking someplace else. Siege tanks, a planetary, a bunker, and some shredders is stupidly strong but it's also very immobile, at the same point in the game could the protoss player potentially have a unit composition or options to exploit this?

So it was an argument but it was also a weak one which was my complaint.
You are gold, the imbalances in this game make no difference to you. Get out of gold and then talk.

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