A Solution to 'Strategic Cheesing'!

General Discussion
I would like to start by saying that Cheesing is a valid way to play because there is no rule prohibiting it, and because all players have an equal opportunity to it. As with any style of playing SC2 - skill is involved throughout - and there is no way to play where skill is not involved. Supporting all forms of strategy keeps the game diverse and prevents it from 'spoiling' or becoming to tired and repetitive.
There is, however, a major flaw that validates what a lot of people have been saying about Cheesing. While many people are not able to voice correctly their frustrations with it, there is a few observations I have made that prove to be true.
1. Not everyone likes to use Cheesing as a strategic method in their arsenal. Outbursts
of anger are common reactions and it often leaves both payers feeling
aggravated/frustrated. (This is pretty much opposite of Blizzards mission to make a
fun, well mannered game.)
2. 'Strategic Cheese' is often based on a risky/high payoff yet cost effective way to end
the game quickly. Do to small unit numbers and low tech/economies, Cheesing tends
to be easier to play. It may even offer opportunistic users a way to beat high caliber
players.
3. The pro's Cheese because their reasons are part of a carefully planned mind game.
The average person does not(they use it as normal play). This makes players copy
the cheesing, without having the reason that accompanies it. Viewing
a stream or replay of a pro using a "cheese", is commonly used by players as an
easy way to copycat wins because it has less steps. If the player does only cheese
style playing, with minimal effort and maximum luck, they can cheaply rise to a level
far above their skill. Placing some instances of Cheesing outside the realm of fair
competition.
Plenty of counter arguments can be made to both sides of the above issues on cheesing. Rather then continue getting nowhere I propose that a solution is created. If all this effort used to argue is channeled into fixing the problem, then a solution can be sent to blizzard, or at least proposed so they know we want a change.
It is clear that cheesing is a part of the game, but it also is flawed. When a player cheeses on the ladder, the defender does not get a chance to play them again. My Idea is for blizzard to grant a number of rematch requests per day or per number of games that could be used to rematch the person you just played(if they agree to it.) That way they could play a best of three, five, or seven - this would show who truly deserves the win. Or they could have a setting to play the best out of three, five, or seven on the match-finder before they even locate the match.

ANYONE ELSE HAVE A SOLUTION OR FIX THEY THINK WOULD END THE HATRED OF CHEESING?


sorry for the mistakes and typos, as I was in a hurry.
I agree that cheesing is a major problem and I think your answer is genius. If the cheesing problem isn't fixed soon then i'll just give up on starcraft 2.
just realized BME made it into silver lol

i really could care less though about any sort of rematches, because kinda would be annoying an not very satisfying to get cheesed probably twice in a row. Much rather just leave it at one game with a supposed 'cheeser',
just realized BME made it into silver lol

i really could care less though about any sort of rematches, because kinda would be annoying an not very satisfying to get cheesed probably twice in a row. Much rather just leave it at one game with a supposed 'cheeser',

I suppose the idea would be that, unless they know how to do other cheeses well, then they probably won't try it in a 2nd game - you'd know what to look for by then.

I approve of the rematch idea. Not only because I get cheeses, but also because sometimes I want to see who of us was really better, and see if I can fight my way ahead later. Plus, playing a 2nd or 3rd game, against the same person, eliminates a portion of the anxiety experienced when playing a totally new person.
Cheesing is like pushing the chessboard aside and pulling out a coin. Heads or tails?
When you said cheesing is a valid way to play, you should have stopped there.

Concerning your first observation, it is true that cheesing is hated by many players. (especially the ones who don't know how to deal with it) However, people will rage you for turtling, harassing, winning, or even using mules. I have experienced all of these and more. Hate towards a style of play is completely irrelevant to determining whether it is wrong or not. Furthermore, the concept of questioning play within the boundaries of the game is flawed.

Your second observation was neutral and senseless.

In your third observation you explain the difference between someone cheesing all the time and a pro using it sometimes. Are you attempting to draw the line somewhere with who gets to cheese or when it should be allowed? You also said: "cheaply rising to a level far above their skill." MMR is what decides where you end up, so if someone makes it into a higher league with simple tactics, this only means they deserve to be there until the people they play in the higher league adapt or beat them down by improving their game.

Your suggestion of a best of x series sounds very naive. Sometimes you are matched against someone much better or worse than you and cheese or no cheese it will be a stomp festival in some cases. If you want to really see who is better pm them for a rematch, or even better, just compare profiles.

"A fix to end the hatred of cheese"
You are trying to find a physical solution to a psychological problem. There are many people with problems of the mind, and often it is entirely up to them to fix them.

Maybe the best solution is to pray for them instead of wasting forum space and time with such dumb posts. Were you trolling? If so 10/10 for effort. :)

I'm sorry in advance for any typos, etc. I didn't check too carefully.
A rematch system already exists. It's called add them to your friends list and make a custom 1v1 with them.

A rematch system that involves the ladder and ladder points (if that's what youre saying) will never exist. It could be too easily exploited to assist in win trading and earning easy ladder points.

If you want a rematch, add them after the game and challenge them.
If you're wondering why I am in a way "defending" cheese, it is because sometimes people want a quick game, or variety after playing the same build order over and over, etc. I have personally made it to masters many times with cheese and macro play alike. I always get an extra tingle in my fingers when my team is cheesing though. Not to mention it is so funny to beat people who trash talk you for their loss due to a lack of scouting or preparation. I'm a bit mean like that.

Anyone want to cheese with me? Let me know! ;)
11/15/2011 07:00 PMPosted by Midknight
I agree that cheesing is a major problem and I think your answer is genius. If the cheesing problem isn't fixed soon then i'll just give up on starcraft 2.


Cheesing is a major problem? Coming from somebody with 62 league wins and 330 achievement points, you're not convincing. By the way, if/when you're going to give up on SC, can I use your account? I'll give you 25 dollars for it. 30 if you haven't used your name change. Joke! ;)
11/15/2011 09:36 PMPosted by Priest
However, people will rage you for turtling, harassing, winning, or even using mules. I have experienced all of these and more. Hate towards a style of play is completely irrelevant to determining whether it is wrong or not.


This. I've been raged at for all sorts of things. It has little to do with 'cheese or not' but much more to do with 'how psychologically prepared is my opponent to take a loss' and whether or not someone is capable of admitting a mistake cost them the game as opposed to a 'gimmick' practiced by the opponent (of course, without that 1 cheap thing they would NEVER lose to a player like that). Keep in mind a substantial chunk of the laddering SC2 population is probably between 15 and 25 years of age, and predominantly male. Ego problems are bound to arise. I think that's the source of the 'cheese' debate.
11/15/2011 10:42 PMPosted by Jazzman
However, people will rage you for turtling, harassing, winning, or even using mules. I have experienced all of these and more. Hate towards a style of play is completely irrelevant to determining whether it is wrong or not.


This. I've been raged at for all sorts of things. It has little to do with 'cheese or not' but much more to do with 'how psychologically prepared is my opponent to take a loss' and whether or not someone is capable of admitting a mistake cost them the game as opposed to a 'gimmick' practiced by the opponent (of course, without that 1 cheap thing they would NEVER lose to a player like that). Keep in mind a substantial chunk of the laddering SC2 population is probably between 15 and 25 years of age, and predominantly male. Ego problems are bound to arise. I think that's the source of the 'cheese' debate.


Well put. :)
However, people will rage you for[...] or even using mules.


I had someone do this to me when it was a TvZ and i got the Z...

trolololol
I actually like this idea. A best of 3 on ladder would be great.
11/15/2011 07:44 PMPosted by Boo
Cheesing is like pushing the chessboard aside and pulling out a coin. Heads or tails?

No, cheese is like going for the 4 move checkmate.
Cheese is good.

You will loose at first, but then you will be forced to learn how to stop it and that means you learn an actual good opening build order and to micro a bit. And you will also learn to scout.

Facing cheese, thought it might be annoying when you don't know how to deal it, it will definately tell you if you are meant to play this game in the future. It will determine your progress later. If you never learn how to counter cheeses, then you most prolly will stay in low level leagues forever or rather quit playing since you are not made for this kind of RTS game.

While I disagree with all of your arguments against 'cheese,' I'd enjoy a rematch button for its own purposes.

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