Give pheonix's +1 range.

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the zergs in here talk like they see phoenix every gamr and lose every game. I have trouble believing this


The funny thing is, I rarely see Phoenix. Usually it's 'If I don't have enough Mutas to handle their army (Stalkers, sometime Archons), I lose. If I do, I win.

When I see Phoenix I have to decide: Do I think I can build enough Mutas to muscle through it, or switch just Roaches and Lings.
I don't really think they need a +1 range, phoenix's already are pretty good as is. Don't get me wrong I would support this is blizzard made the change but I rather see other changes before this one ever went through.

As it stands if a protoss scouts a likely muta build then he just has to have a few phoenix out around the same time as the zerg, if the protoss/zerg have a low number of each unit the protoss will almost always come out on top with good micro thus effectively shut down muta play.

The zerg has to tech switch if he looses his muta's to early because he just lost the map control provided by them and now has to play defensively. When I beat a zerg's muta in the early game it almost always guarantees me a victory because the zerg can't recover in time to deal with mutas unless he tech switches.
make a unit like collossus except it hits air, and you can A move, that should make the protoss happy
11/10/2011 05:35 AMPosted by Cyclo
Mutalisks are not a hard unit to deal with if you build enough phoenixes early enough.


The only way we are able to "build enough phoenixes early enough" is when we start producing phoenix blindly even before spire is complete. Obviously once mutas hit the board, it's too late to drop two stargates and chrono out phoenix to compete with the growing muta numbers. There's something wrong when we have to commit into a double stargate build just in case we need to counter a single unit, the muta, even before zerg has committed himself to mutas.

11/10/2011 05:35 AMPosted by Cyclo
So Zerg can't harass, so if you have archons in your mixture with maybe a high templar or two plus stalkers, sentries, and phoenixes it owns ling muta.


So we need archons, HT, stalkers, sentries, and phoenix to deal with ling muta. Does anybody else see how silly that is???
11/10/2011 10:44 AMPosted by Sideswipe
Mutalisks are not a hard unit to deal with if you build enough phoenixes early enough.


The only way we are able to "build enough phoenixes early enough" is when we start producing phoenix blindly even before spire is complete. Obviously once mutas hit the board, it's too late to drop two stargates and chrono out phoenix to compete with the growing muta numbers. There's something wrong when we have to commit into a double stargate build just in case we need to counter a single unit, the muta, even before zerg has committed himself to mutas.

So Zerg can't harass, so if you have archons in your mixture with maybe a high templar or two plus stalkers, sentries, and phoenixes it owns ling muta.


So we need archons, HT, stalkers, sentries, and phoenix to deal with ling muta. Does anybody else see how silly that is???


Thats why scouting is important, and as a protoss if you let a zerg get mass muta then it's pretty much your own fault for not stopping him earlier on when he had them in small numbers.

This is almost an all in strategy in 1v1 for zerg now and days, if they loose to many muta's early on then the game swings into your favour. If it makes it into late game and he has critcal mass muta then yes would need archon/sentry/stalkers(to kill the mutas) with phoenix's to stop expo harass when he splits them up.
haha yeah corsair is the beast
Marines cost 50 minerals 0 gas and they have a range of 5 and can shoot both air AND ground. Phoenixes cost 100/100, so why can't they get a +1 range upgrade to get range 5? Doesn't make sense...
I think the problem lies in the fact that Idra had 20 mutalisks and White-Ra only had 2 phoenixes and 10 stalkers.

Not saying I play better, but I think it's clear Idra powered tech and army hard and White-Ra didn't match it. Idra did all the harass. I don't think Idra's build was overpowered against protoss, but just the strategies White-Ra used. I also think that the phoenix would be overpowered if attacking mutas while staying out of range was any easier.

Edit: Removed trolling your misspelling of the word Phoenix and some incorrect grammar...Or did I? :D
I like the idea, but it will be too good early game when muta numbers are low, they could snipe anything they wanted to. Making it a late-game upgrade, however, would not disrupt the early game while still helping deal with big numbers of mutas.
It's pretty much a known fact that mutas are too good against protoss. Protoss can't use high templar or archons.

High templar don't work because if the mutas fly over probes, you can't storm. Also, there's the chance of missing, and even if you don't, you only soften them a bit.

Archons can't keep up with mutas flying everywhere, and they simply are too big to be used to defend.

Phoenix don't work against mutas once there are 15 or so. Zergs have more gas income than protoss because you should be on 6 gas when the toss is on 4, meaning basically, the zerg can produce 6 mutas in the time it takes a protoss to get 4 phoenix, but that's only if you're dumping all of your gas into phoenix. While yes, 4 phoenix beats 6 mutas, Protoss can't dump all their gas into phoenix because they need stalkers, sentries, colossus, and other gas intensive units to deal with other zergs units. Zergs, however, can pretty much dump all of their gas into mutas besides for upgrades and maybe an infestation pit for an infestor or two and hive tech, which by then the zerg will probably be on 4 base and the mutas would've already done enough damage(mentally and physically) to deny a third from the protoss since mutas give you complete map dominance and the protoss can't deal with the defense required to defend a third.

Cannons only work up to a certain point. If you have more than like 10 mutas, cannons will only get 3-5 shots off, which is about 1 dead muta. Also, the splash damage could possibly kill a probe or two, and forces the cannon to be rebuilt, and the protoss to have to waste APM dealing with the mutas.

The only way I see of dealing with mutas is either the other player miismanaging them, or pushing before they can get mutas.

I think the problem lies in the fact that Idra had 20 mutalisks and White-Ra only had 2 phoenixes and 10 stalkers.

Not saying I play better, but I think it's clear Idra powered tech and army hard and White-Ra didn't match it. Idra did all the harass. I don't think Idra's build was overpowered against protoss, but just the strategies White-Ra used. I also think that the phoenix would be overpowered if attacking mutas while staying out of range was any easier.

Edit: Removed trolling your misspelling of the word Phoenix and some incorrect grammar...Or did I? :D


There isn't much that protosses can do to prevent mutas from being in the game without 4 gating. Even fast SG doesn't work unless you double SG in which the zerg can just realize and stop making mutas and making more roaches. Also, phoenix kiting is ridiculously hard and apm intensive because of the reaction time required to kite and the range difference being oinly 1 or two.

11/10/2011 03:49 PMPosted by ZZZ
Marines cost 50 minerals 0 gas and they have a range of 5 and can shoot both air AND ground. Phoenixes cost 100/100, so why can't they get a +1 range upgrade to get range 5? Doesn't make sense...


1. Marines have 6 range.
2.A phoenix costs 150/100
3. The range will help, but it won't help the fact that the phoenix is fundamentally broken because you're basically paying minerals and gas for the phoenix to be able to shoot while moving, but if you can't even do it, you're paying minerals and gas for nothing. They should just make phoenix unable to shoot while moving, and then just rebalancing their damage and maybe consider adding splash.

supposedly stalkers counter mutas too.
White-ra made those and he still couldnt beat them.

The fact remains that all toss players are getting destroyed by mutas.


Nope

players that can't deal with mutas are getting destroyed by mutas


Players that can't deal with mutas=Every protoss player.
okay,
1. Mass Muta is less costly than pheonixes by minerals only.
2. Pheonixes are WAY more cost efficient than Mutas.
3. If you chrono 2 stargates off 2 bases then you can beat a zergs production of mutas off of three bases.
4. 15phoenixes kills atleast 25 mutalisks.
5. Even when you factor in the bounce against phoenixes. They stilll get owned. 12 dps to 18 dps. Pheonixes do 50% more damage and have more range, health, and speed.

Just actually build phoenixes more quickly if your fighting mutalisks. Also each armor point vs. mutalisks increasing survivablilty against them by close to 50%. Guardian SHield increases survivability by 100%. It's 9-2+6-2+3-2 so you reduce their dps 4. That's not taking in stalkers base amount of armor.

Mutalisks are not a hard unit to deal with if you build enough phoenixes early enough. They're only an issue in HUGE numbers that you haven't had pheonixes picking apart. for example they have 15 mutas they attack you you run in stalkers and 6phoenixes to deal with it they lose 5 mutas but took out a pylon because the phoenixes chased them for a while then ran back to the safety of the stalkers. If the Zerg keeps doign this they will lose too many resources rebuilding mutas while his phoenix count is getting bigger. So Zerg can't harass, so if you have archons in your mixture with maybe a high templar or two plus stalkers, sentries, and phoenixes it owns ling muta.


The difference is, protoss can't afford to spend gas on phoenix while zergs can. Also, they aren't as efficient as you think because they can't hit ground without graviton and can't hit buildings at all.
witera build about 10 phoenix in the game against what? 50muta? and seriously, stalker is not good against mutalisk! got archon my friend, it forces muta to do magic carpet, which makes muta weaker and harder to micro with!
11/10/2011 06:00 PMPosted by Invincible
witera build about 10 phoenix in the game against what? 50muta? and seriously, stalker is not good against mutalisk! got archon my friend, it forces muta to do magic carpet, which makes muta weaker and harder to micro with!


I love magic carpeting.
11/09/2011 12:21 AMPosted by OpTiKDream
give pheonix a upgrade to do splash damage

yeah, that
11/10/2011 07:16 PMPosted by Bone
give pheonix a upgrade to do splash damage

yeah, that


I don't think Blizzard wants to make any big changes anymore, even though that's what the game needs.
11/10/2011 07:56 PMPosted by Troll

yeah, that


I don't think Blizzard wants to make any big changes anymore, even though that's what the game needs.


they gives us the changes we deserve, not the changes we need.
I don't think Blizzard wants to make any big changes anymore, even though that's what the game needs.


Giving phoenixes a splash damage upgrade is not a big change. Its way less of a change than adding an entirely new unit (i.e. Tempest). It also gives the phoenix late game viability which it currently lacks. Thats way better than adding a new situational unit, and having the stargate have two situational units, instead of just one unit thats useful throughout the game.

Blizzard is clearly not thinking things out properly. The Tempest is a completely unnecessary addition to the game. The problem has always been that the Phoenix lacked a fleet beacon upgrade that gave it viability as a late game unit. There's also NOTHING wrong with the Carrier other than the fact it needs a buff (which Blizzard didnt even make an attempt at doing).
And giving phoenix splash would step on the Tempest's toes.


Thats the whole point. There would be no reason for the Tempest to exist then. Its stupid to add an entirely new unit to the game when you can just buff an existing unit thats already considered weak so it can perform the same role.

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