Would this 4 changes break terran?

General Discussion
OKAY LET'S MAKE MEDIVACS INTO WARP PRISMS

SO THAT MEANS 200 MINERALS RIGHT

YAY
11/09/2011 09:35 PMPosted by PwigZ
1) there's a big difference between passive regeneration that's slow and can only happen out of combat, and in-combat healing that out-heals the dps of zerglings, zealots and even ultralisks once you add armor upgrades to your marauders.


Consider, though, that Terran regeneration costs money, supply, and SCV mining time, as opposed to Protoss and Zergs', which just happen. Also, it's not possible to make enough Medivacs to out-heal the incoming DPS of an equivalent opposing force. Upgrades don't matter, because the opponent should be on equal upgrade footing. If that isn't the case, balance isn't the issue.

2)He's basing it off of the fact that emp was on the science vessel in BW, and lockdown was the ghost's ability that temporarily disabled mechanical units. I like it this way better, anyway


I didn't know that, thanks. I still think that putting EMP alongside PDD is a bad idea, given that Protoss' primary anti-air option is the Stalker.

3) In BW, the marine only had 4 range by default and was upgraded to have 5. Now that upgrade has been replaced by combat shield (which, by the way, BW marines = 40 hp, SC2 marine 45 + 10 from combat shield). Just a little food for thought - marines had their health, range, move speed, and DPS all buffed in SC2, while lings and zealots are actually worse than their BW versions


I suppose that's true, and probably part of the reason that Marines are considered OP by and large. Still, Marine range is already shorter than that of other units. It seems like factors like cost, smart-fire AI, and versatility are the real issue, not range.
or actually force them to micro and vary builds.

-Medivac required tech lab and healing requires upgrade (SC1 drop ships were the same price as the medivac and actually required an attachment to build.)

-EMP switched to Raven but EMP buffed; give ghosts lockdown but it requires research (this ability is too early and too cheap for its price)

-Stimpack has a 10 seconds cooldown after use (blink has a cooldown and so does charge; it wont affect performance but will actually make terrans play smart and be wary of ambushes.)

-Give marines a range upgrade accessible from the engineering bay or requires factory but nerf marine range by 1 (will make terran go early mech or air without going 1/1/1 all in)


If not explain why it won't work and the flaws with this changes. This is your chance to say something smart terrans.


Wait, you're attempting to make Terrans micro more? Terran is the most micro intensive race in the game, and that's why they're so powerful.. most of their units have nearly limitless micro opportunity. Zerg are the second most micro intensive, with a few units that have nearly unlimited micro and a few that are very a-move friendly. Protoss are the least micro intensive, with only a couple of units (one of which is very situational) that aren't very a-move friendly.

What the game needs is to give Zerg slightly more micro potential and give Protoss significantly more micro potential.

And yes those mechanics would break the game for Terran, particularly the medevac change.. protoss don't need an upgrade to make Warp Prism function as a pylon, and Zerg only require upgrades for their overlords since they're tier 0 units.
11/09/2011 09:51 PMPosted by HaZe
This isn't broodwar, in broodwar terran had medics, in broodwar dragoons had inferior AI to ultralisks. Ravens having EMP would be sillyness, it would make ghosts worthless, and mech is the way of HoTS anyways.

Actually, with Lockdown, MMMG would completely dominate the protoss deathball because the ghost would just lockdown all the colossi, immortals, and all other expensive mechanical units.
1) Yes; but the regenerative abilities of both zerg and protoss do not work or is useful in the engagement itself (thus with medivacs we see 3 marauders easily take on 6 stalkers with stim). While the medivacs aren't as useful if you take a storm in the face (which rarely happens); it make all the other protoss units as simple meatshields. This only happens when a critical amount of medivacs is reached.

2) Stim is too low on the tech tree; however the real problem is that the ghosts is cheap and an offensive unit. The radius decrease is not a solution because the terran can simply spam more EMP. This change would make EMP while pdd's can easily be dealt with templars. The real solution is that terran would have to decide between EMP research or Healing research (it should be an expensive upgrade 200/200); thus requires a lot more scouting.

3) Stalkers outrange marines however its not effective because stalkers have a firing animation thus marines are almost always able to land a hit. The reduce range would allow stalkers to actually kite marines. Remember that terran tier 1 is a lot better than protoss mediocre tier 1 units. The stimpack change makes marauders very vulnerable against zealot stalker if they stim on the wrong momemt.

Bad stim should have consequences; such the consequences we suffer if we do a bad blink.


See what I said to Pwigz for most of this. However, I'd like to speak to your last two points. I don't think Stalkers are intended to be able to kite marines perfectly. Kiting should really only work in a Ranged -> Melee situation. Their current range advantage just gives them the edge in small engagements. In larger battles, Stalker kiting against Marines is hardly necessary or worthwhile.

As for your stimpack suggestion, like others have said, it's a buff, not a nerf. Right now, a player who hits "t" three times in a row reduces his unit's HP without increasing or stacking the effects of stimpack. Your change would prevent them from "overmedicating."
Wait, you're attempting to make Terrans micro more? Terran is the most micro intensive race in the game, and that's why they're so powerful..


This just isn't true. The game of StarCraft II is micro-intensive. Every race has plenty of tactics and techniques that require high APM and micromanagement to effectively capitalize on. Each race can A-move a large ball if they like, but micromanagement of spells and positioning is crucial in many areas of each race's gameplay. The Protoss A-move stigma you're subscribing to comes about because of the need to protect the Collosus in order to maximize its survivability. Other Protoss strategies require significant micromanagement.
11/09/2011 08:33 PMPosted by Draken
or actually force them to micro and vary builds.


That must be a joke, terran is the most micro intensive race.

I pretty much don't think any of thsee are good ideas
Damn, I'm having a lot of trouble against Terrans. Maybe I should improve? ... No.

NOO! *Slams fist on table*

Terran must be nerfed, I say!
I mean, damn, I have a picture and everything! It's obvious!
These changes wouldn't break Terran, but I don't see how they're really necessary.

1) Medivacs only serve to counteract the negative effects of Stimpack and to top units off after a battle. It's not really feasiable to get enough Medivacs to significantly decrease the amount of DPS a MMM ball takes, during an engagement, especially v.s. Collossi and Chargelots. Also, each race has a regenerative ability- Protoss shields, Zerg regeneration, Terran Medivac/Repair.

2) Not sure what lockdown is, but Ghosts having EMP makes sense. Giving it to the Raven forces a tech path, that's not something that's fair at all (hello Observer.) Anyway, there are some issues with EMP, but giving it to the unit that can also drop a Point Defense Drone to keep your Stalkers from shooting it down first ain't a great idea. The recent radius nerf seems to be an adequate way to address to the problems, to me.

3) Marines are the base unit of the Terran army, and like other base units of other races, they have upgrades that increase their efficiency (Zealot Charge, Stalker Blink, Roach/Ling Speed, Marauder Conc. Shell, Marine Combat Shield). Your suggestion would make Marines the only T1 unit that needs an upgrade to get back to standard efficiency. Marines are already out-ranged by Stalkers and Void Rays, and both of those units can abuse them early game. Late game, Colossus roast them.

Obviously the game isn't perfectly balanced. Perhaps you could explain more thoroughly what balance issues your changes address?


im only quote/replying jsut to give you an idea of what the change proposal the op is saying

1) in SC1 terran never had a healing unit, they never got one until the expansion broodwar, the skills the medic had was heal, optic flair, and restoration. the healing effects of medics was double the healing speed of the current medivac and the unit itself was (this is by memory but im sure its not quite right) 75/25. the purpose of the medic was to help terrans fight off early attacks as marines only had 40 health and a much slower rate of fire compared to SC2, also could not stutter step micro as effective. the change idea the op wants is mainly to make medivacs act as dropships at first, THEN upgrade to have a healing ability as terran bio is pretty strong as is.

2) lockdown was an ability ghosts had in SC1, the ability was a 100 energy spell that made 1 mechanical unit unable to move or shoot for 1 min gametime. this ability was terans way to hard counter battle cruisers and carriors, and also broke heavy mech lines. with EMP the op i assume eather would like the raven be more like the science vessle from SC1 as EMP then belonged to the detector unit but was a researched spell for 200/200, it had the same radius as the ghost EMP before the nerf but instead of takeing down 100 sheilds and all energy it took out all sheilds and energy for 75 energy (was mostly used to kill heavy archons and assulting protoss production facilities as sheilds healed as fast as zerg healing)

3) marines may be the base army of terran but they got a HUGE upgrade from the different games, in SC1, they had 40HP, slower rate of fire, fireing animation had to finnish before they can move, and had to spend 150/150 on an upgrade to increase there range by one to match the marine range that is in SC2. marines in SC2 have 45hp to start, can get 10 more hp with a 100/100 upgrade, and of course have no problems fireing on the move which makes them more effective.

the UI + AI also makes SC2 marines more powerfull compared to SC1 due to they stay tucked in a ball so more units can fire, and you can select up to 255 units, in SC1 you can only select up to 12 units and if something is in the way of a unit as it is running to its location, they will pick another path to reach the spot, mostly resulting in units running away from combat, hence why APM was much more important in SC1 compared to SC2.
11/09/2011 10:27 PMPosted by Madrox
im only quote/replying jsut to give you an idea of what the change proposal the op is saying


I already responded to all of these points earlier in the thread, someone else made them first. Feel free to comment on my most recent posts, though XD
11/09/2011 08:33 PMPosted by Draken
or actually force them to micro

I guess marine splitting and multi-pronged drops are all accomplished through A-move.
I guess marine splitting and multi-pronged drops are all accomplished through A-move.


No, but spamming stimpack and rolling over a superior protoss army is a simple A move command.

LOL multi drops are hard? I guess some Terrans don't know how to shift click.
11/09/2011 10:07 PMPosted by Twrecks
or actually force them to micro and vary builds.


That must be a joke, terran is the most micro intensive race.

I pretty much don't think any of thsee are good ideas


Terran requires almost 0 micro.

With 0 micro, you can get to at least plat with terran: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186583

Past plat? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e4fKP02dEw&list=FLKgntWwt_b_fMNEMOIAgNvQ&index=4
Damn, I'm having a lot of trouble against Terrans. Maybe I should improve? ... No.

NOO! *Slams fist on table*

Terran must be nerfed, I say!


Terran's perspective:

Protoss loose simply because they're bad. It doesn't matter that I go MMM + ghost EVERY SINGLE GAME; my skill is so good that I crush Colossi, archon and templar with the units that are suppose to be weak against said units.

A terran player never looses due to bad composition because MMM is effective against its own counters.
Medivacs: Horrible idea, it would just delay the healing for my weak bio-ball for even longer.

EMP: Ravens are already very powerful, so they don't need a buff. Also, Ghosts are actually fun to use and I would like for them to stay useful.

Stimpack: Horrible, charge and blink don't take 10 HP away everytime you use it.

Range nerf: Why? If there was a reason, maybe, but there isn't.

Yeah, those 4 things would destroy Terran...
This just isn't true. The game of StarCraft II is micro-intensive. Every race has plenty of tactics and techniques that require high APM and micromanagement to effectively capitalize on. Each race can A-move a large ball if they like, but micromanagement of spells and positioning is crucial in many areas of each race's gameplay. The Protoss A-move stigma you're subscribing to comes about because of the need to protect the Collosus in order to maximize its survivability. Other Protoss strategies require significant micromanagement.


Then why do Terrans go the same build every game? I never see hellions, banshees, ravens, reapers, thors, siege tanks, battlecruisers in PvT unless its the 1-1-1 all in

It's because MMM is very forgivable, low risk, high reward, effective and low APM build. Its almost impossible too loose due too poor composition, lack of scouting or positioning.
Medivacs: Horrible idea, it would just delay the healing for my weak bio-ball for even longer.

EMP: Ravens are already very powerful, so they don't need a buff. Also, Ghosts are actually fun to use and I would like for them to stay useful.

Stimpack: Horrible, charge and blink don't take 10 HP away everytime you use it.

Range nerf: Why? If there was a reason, maybe, but there isn't.

Yeah, those 4 things would destroy Terran...


1) Then don't go bioball every single game if the Protoss goes aggressive. There is more than 1 build in the Terran arsenal.

2)Lockdown would be useful in late game. Really? which terran player uses ravens?

3) Blink doesn't give me a 50% increase in rate of fire on my zealots and stalkers. I cannot use another blink if I make a "bad blink"

4) Yeah, marines cannot be kited by stalkers and roaches due to the delay animation. Kiting would be harder and thus requires good positioning between marauders and marines.

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