Im Protoss and I think Zealots are OP

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zealots are quick, if you have one siege tank(siege mode) and 50 zealots my bet is on the tank. i am also a toss player and i think that. if you have light units then zealots can pack a punch but if you got heavy armor then zealots are going to die.
11/22/2011 12:53 PMPosted by Qix
You can't just mass marines against protoss, its too vunerable to collusi/storm.


Say what?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=200525

Stimmedprobe's million man marine style. It counters protoss, period.

Strategies like that are why I consider it a waste of time to ladder in 1 v 1 right now.

imo, mule duration should be increased by 1.5, it should be reduced to the mineral intake of 1 scv, and subject to saturation rules.

Also, I think charge should be removed from the game completely and the speed buff from BW brought back. You think chargelots are bad? Imagine never being able to kite even with stim due to zealots that have a faster move speed than stalkers.

Ridiculous? Well, I'm plat, just like the OP, my opinion on balance is just as valid as his, which is to say, it isn't valid in any way, shape, and form.

I'll give weight to balance suggestions when the OP's start making custom maps and demonstrating how these changes would affect the game, rather than their bullcrap theorycrafting and their intentional omissions of game breaking side effects.

The OP trolled you all.


...lol, that strat you linked is old as hell. Nobody does that on ladder.

If this is the reason you refuse to ladder, I wonder what you play - customs?

you linked an old strat that's way back in march. the metagame has changed a million times since.
11/21/2011 01:11 PMPosted by Blueduck

That's because Marauders really aren't designed to counter Zealots.

Mind blown?


Bob,

You and I have had our fair share of good arguments before but I'm glad that we can agree that:

1) zealots counter mauraders,
2) zerglings counter stalkers,
3) nothing counters marines


correction, SPEEDlings counter stalkers.
I'm protoss and I think probes are OP
At page 14, I seriously doubt anyone will bother reading this, but it makes me feel better.

The zealot is not overpowered. I'm sorry fellow terrans, but that's silly. If anything, it needs a buff so Protoss can build something in the early game other than sentries.

The problem is that our power units are trash.

Every other races' high-tier units have either a) splash damage, or b) some special ability. Colossi, Archon, and Ultralisk have splash, and Broodlord, templar, and carrier rely on special abilities (broodlord spawns broodlings, templar w/ storm and feedback, carrier basically irrelevant but also spawns interceptors and deals MASSIVE damage). Terran high-tier units have...what, exactly? Battlecruiser does less DPS than 4 stim marines and 1 medivac to heal them, costs 3x as much, takes 10x longer to make, moves slower, and requires extra tech. In other words, why build battlecruiser when marine/medivac does everything better?

"Oh, but Shadow! Battle cruisers can absorb lots of damage, and has yamato cannon!"

You got me. If you divide your maxed army into two halves, and turn one half into 4 battlecruisers, you will absorb a lot of damage before you GG. Battlecruisers cost way too much just to absorb damage from stalkers. And Yamato cannon can't even 1-shot a colossus. If it could, we might see BC late-game vs. protoss if it wasn't so easy to feedback.

What about the thor?

Where do I even begin. They are easy to focus with stalkers/immortals, they don't do damage fast enough for their cost, and they actually take about 1/2 second to switch targets, unlike any other unit in the game. so, if their target dies before it shoots, it won't instantly find another unit and attack that instead. It will pause for a half second (This is only true for its ground attack, but if you are building thors to counter protoss air, you should probably got play something else. like pong.) And in a big battle, with 5 thors, that is between 700 and 1000 damage NOT dealt. They have energy, which is silly. There is no way to avoid feedback on thors except to EMP them, and if protoss splits his high templar properly, you need all the EMP's you can get. Also, strike cannons is the most useless ability in the game, just under corruption. To put this in perspective, I will compile a list of protoss units that are cost effective against thors: zealots, stalkers, DT's (amazingly enough, yes they are), immortals, void rays, carriers, mothership. Noticed that 2 mainstay protoss units, as well as something in each tech tree, is on that list.

Raven is about as good as the battlecruiser. Auto-turret placement is actually block by enemy units, so it's very hard to throw down some auto-turrets in a battle, and also time-consuming. Terran needs to stutter-step micro in order to not lose everything in a one-sided slaughterfest, and we don't have time to also be throwing down auto-turrets in battle. PDD is only effective againsts stalkers and phoenixes, and there's usually enough of them to make PDD ineffective, although PDD is the most useful spell a raven has. Seeker missile's range makes it useless, regardless of the research, damage, and energy cost. Feedback again is the problem.

I've seen some people suggesting tanks. I will respond with another list of units that are excellent vs. tanks. Chargelots, blink stalkers (iffy), DT's (with lack of detection), immortals, colossi, phoenix, void rays, carriers, mothership, archons. Notice that almost every protoss unit is on that list.

Another suggestion is hellions. Every factory we build is one less ghost, one less medivac, one less upgrade we're getting. Every hellion we get after that is two less marines. We're sacrificing a significant amount of army strength just to counter zealots. For a unit that is useless as soon as the zealots are dead. Now, with vikings and Colossi, that is accetable because Colossi are massive damage dealers, and we can sacrifice maybe 30 supply of our army in order to get rid of them quickly. But now we have to devote another 40 or so supply of hellions just to clean out chargelots, with 60 supply of workers? That leaves 70 supply for marines, medivacs, ghosts, and marauders. Not enough to win a battle vs. archons, templar, immortals, and a quick warp in of stalkers. And with the BFH nerf (which I admit was needed), hellions wouldn't even be able to kill chargelots before they die.

And for all the people that are saying that terran just needs to learn to play just like the other races have done: EVERY time there has been imbalance in the late game, regardless of race, there was a nerf or buff. BFH nerf was directly toward TvT and TvZ late game hellion runbys, which were way too cost effective. Khaydarin amulet removal was because of warp-in storm harass. Ultralisk build time buff. Other stuff that I can't remember because it's past my bedtime.

The overall problem is that our high-tier units are so bad, we have to use our early and mid tier units to win games. The reason chargelots are now so powerful now is because they synergize so well with units that recently got buffed (archon and immortal come to mind, although mostly the archon). That synergy has given protoss the upper hand against our main unit composition (MMMGV), and we have no other good units to fall back on that don't get demolished by mainstay protoss units.

Oh yeah, I've also heard some people saying, "don't engage the deathball!"

I'm sorry to tell you that the protoss deathball is signficantly more mobile than any other deathball (blink stalkers, chargelots and archon move quickly, colossi walk over cliffs), and also that the warp-in mechanic makes harass significantly harder and more risky vs. protoss.


Good read, pretty much sums up the problem in tvp.. Mmm ghost is the only viable strat and doing anything beside it is playing with the odds against you.

Terrans should just all in every time where terran's strenght is at it's peak instead of battling this stupid uphill match up
But you aren't allowed to say that your own race is overpowered in any way. It's those terran and zerg that have the overpowered stuff, right?
I thought i've seen it all....this topic proofs me wrong.
n the game i posted the final battle was 7000 army worth TERRAN vs 5000 army worth Protoss, zealots are just too cost effiicient late game.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/15480

posting replay again for those who didnt see.

I also overprobed, taking AWAY from my army.


Look at the terran's army composition though; he went very marauder-heavy against archon/zealot/HT... zealots are SUPPOSED to counter marauders, and almost nothing in that protoss army was armored so the marauders were doing far less damage than they would have otherwise. r


There isn't much other option. Marines get massacred against Collosi and HT tech. Tanks aren't very viable TvP mid-late game and Thors are Thors. I don't know about adjusting the Zealot cost, but I think changing them from 100/50shields to something like 80/70shields would help alot because ghosts would be able to soften them up better.
They fluffing cost 100 minerals... I fluffing hope they are hard to kill compared to some 50 minerals unit !!
Yo, What is this? I thought Chargelots melted to Stimmed Marines plus Medivacs, And as for the Archon/Chargelot combo, heh Just don't go either Bio or Mech, Try both of them... Like, Thors+BIO and few tanks.

Also god, A zealot gets killed by anything at the early game until Charge and +2 armor upgrade is researched!
I'm Protoss and i think You Are An Idiot


Look at the terran's army composition though; he went very marauder-heavy against archon/zealot/HT... zealots are SUPPOSED to counter marauders, and almost nothing in that protoss army was armored so the marauders were doing far less damage than they would have otherwise. r


There isn't much other option. Marines get massacred against Collosi and HT tech..


So protect your marines? There is this concept called 'positioning'.
what else do we go if not marauders?

Marines?

they instant die to archons/storms/colosi


blizz should implement a better marine. One the equivlent of 6 stim marines rolled into one. It should cost some gas and be higher tech to deal with aoe. Now that might be a little op so reduce its maneuverability. However to balance that give it a long range air attack to deal with harass and a splash to deal with units like mutalisks. To keep it safe vs t1 units make it big to block off chokes.

Incase I wasnt obvious enough im talking about thors. The magnificantly high damage armored giants


Or alternativly if really zealot heavy just build bcs. However don't mow down zealots first. Send straight to base and take out pylons. then burn down archons and zealots


p.s ive dealt with mass 3/3 zealot archon and im silver so you should really be brushing up if a higher league


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