It Still Makes Me Mad That The Hydra Sucks

General Discussion
They also counter stalkers and sentries. And they move as fast as colossi off creep.
11/28/2011 02:14 AMPosted by iDontKnow
They also counter stalkers and sentries. And they move as fast as colossi off creep.


O.O Sentry isn't a combat unit for starters and as for stalkers O.O just wow
But the fact is that one hydra dies to three marines. I don't think I need to tell you how cost ineffective that is -_-


It even dies to 2
11/28/2011 02:14 AMPosted by iDontKnow
They also counter stalkers and sentries. And they move as fast as colossi off creep.


They barely counter stalkers. They'd win by like 1 HP, but by the time hydras are on the field and have a ranged upgrade, stalkers should easily be able to use minimal blink micro, or even just move back when shields are low.
11/27/2011 04:32 PMPosted by Nogan

We've been trying to get something done since Beta. Blizzard finally responded by putting in a tentative speed upgrade at Hive tech in HotS.

This is basically them saying "We know it's a terrible unit, but we really don't care. We're too concerned with making Terran the best race."

The speed upgrade is a big deal. While it isn't as awesome as bringing back the old BW hydralisk, it will actually give a reason for Zerg to invest in Missile Attack upgrades and bring some late game life to Roach/Hydralisk armies.


Except by the time you get to hive tech hydras are absolutely worthless because the number of colossus or siege tanks out at this point makes their speed irrelevant because they die 5 seconds after combat begins.
The biggest vulnerability of the Hydralisk is their fragility. And I'm frankly completely fine with that. It's an interesting design choice to make the Hydralisk perform poorly as a one-unit army, and it should inspire a change to Marines and Stalkers, the former having a vulnerability to splash damage but otherwise crazy cost-effectiveness in pure Marine groups and the latter being a standard midgame unit composition once Blink is researched.

So the Hydralisk depends on the Roach or the Zergling to tank damage for them to have mid-game usage. It makes sense, as they're both short-range units with faster speed, always causing them to take the front of the army.

As a Roach/Hydra/Queen player, I always have enough creep spread to get Hydras wherever I need to go quick enough. I've also used Nydus Worms to good success OUTSIDE the opponents base as a fast reinforcement line, but it requires map control. Hydras are definitely relatively slow off-creep, but you learn to work around that. That's why I don't think a Speed upgrade is the correct decision.

Yet still, in more than half of my Zerg games where I describe myself as a RHQ player, I end up only using RQ, never graduating to the Hydras. The Roach is such a cost-effective unit (not as much as the Marine, due to supply cost, but if that supply cost weren't high...) that when the game is tipped in your favor, constant Roach pressure off two/three bases can easily hammer them down. So is the issue of the Hydra that the Roach is too cost-effective and it makes it unnecessary to get them out unless there are air units or strong anti-armor?

Perhaps. That was the issue of the Carrier, not anything else. The Carrier was super-strong, but why would you spend all that money, time, and supply on it when the Void Ray was more cost-effective and the Phoenix had many particular uses? So maybe the Hydralisk needs a little more purpose in order to justify its greater cost.

That's why I'd propose one of two possible changes:

  • 1: Increase default range of Hydralisk to 6.

  • 2: Change Grooved Spines to give +2 to Hydralisk range.


  • If you were here since release, you'd have seen that the Roach was fundamentally improved in every situation when it was increased from 3 range to 4. By giving the Hydralisk 7 range, you help them exploit high ground, get the first round off against most lower-tier armies, deal with the Marauders breaking down the Roach line (Hydras are poor against Terran specifically because of Bio), defend better against air harass, snipe the sneakier overlords, give a head start when running after the Roaches fall, and perhaps perform a bit better in drop harass techniques.




    Don't get mad about the condition of the Hydra. Get vocal. They often go hand-in-hand, but it's better to be cool-headed in suggestion changes than have the developers close their ears to yet another raging player invested in their own race.
    It Still Makes Me Annoyed That People Go Out Of Their Way To Use Title Case.
    11/28/2011 09:45 AMPosted by MVDuneCats
    It Still Makes Me Annoyed That People Go Out Of Their Way To Use Title Case.


    It bothers you when it is used in the thread title? Seems to me like that's the appropriate place to use it.
    It is commonly held that zerg is the "Agressive" race, and that is the reason why our base defense abilities pretty much stink after early game. Fighting a large battle in your own base- is pretty much a ticket to a lost game for zerg. But how is a fragile & SLOW unit supposed to be used agressively? slings/banes/mutas/all have the capacity for speed to compensate for their frailty. The roach/ultra/corruptor all have armor to compensate for their slower movement, and the roach can be fast with an upgrade. But the hydra.... If the hydra is a good unit like it is- why do so many players of all races try to force hydras? These things are so slow and fragile that almost any other combo of a T1 + T2 unit is superior to the combination of _zerg T1_/hydra except marine/viking, zealot/pheonix, or bling/corruptor. Not to mention the fact that a straight T1 army outperforms any unit composition that includes T1 + hydras.

    2 templar/ 4 tanks/ 4 collossi/ 3 infestors can 1shot a whole army of them, without them even having the option of running away. Sure they can actually move at the same speed as these units- but they're just going to follow them until they stop, and then kill them. The way they are made, much like the marine, they're not really that useful until they hit a critical mass. But building a critical mass of hydras is completly suicidal when the hard counters of them are so comparatively cheap. And almost every unit in the game could be considered a soft counter to them. Marauders can stim and focus down banelings, marines, or zealots. Stalkers can blink and escape a surround of lings or zealots, or just flee marines. Roaches can burrow move away from these threats. At T1 this makes a lot of sense. And most T2 units suffer when they face off against T1 units. But the hydras IS supposed to be a T2 zerg unit - and doesn't do anything for it's army like what any other T2 unit provides. It takes twice as many hydras to combat the T2 units they counter well but they also require %25 more supply. Yes hydras cost lest than other T2 units- until you factor in their supply cost & their incredibly short lifespan. Think about it- 2 hydras =4 supply vs. 1 banshee or void that is only 3 supply. Hydras are a good counter to mutas for equal supply- but queens/infestors/ & corruptors are all a better counter for less resources & supply(requires fewer of them)- and spores are an even better counter for no supply & NO gas. They have a short build time- but why would you build more of them when they just got slaughtered without even inflicting any damage? - well no damage to your oponent anyway....
    11/28/2011 12:46 PMPosted by Terry
    It is commonly held that zerg is the "Agressive" race


    That's funny, because I've heard for many months that Zerg is the "reactionary" race, which stays passive making drones and taking bases until they see the enemy move out, where only then will they make just enough units to hold it off.
    I have been seeing hydras used in so many tournaments lately. They are actually really, really good until the Protoss can get colossi out. Which means delayed templar/air play.
    11/28/2011 01:12 PMPosted by Smitty
    That's funny, because I've heard for many months that Zerg is the "reactionary" race, which stays passive making drones and taking bases until they see the enemy move out, where only then will they make just enough units to hold it off.


    You are right! That's also part of point I was trying to make. What can you build a hydra as a reaction to, without getting stomped by your oponent for doing so? They build 10 pheonix/10 mutas/10 vikings- so you build 10 hydras- and then splat- the hydras are worse than worthless once the units they counter are dead. You spent nearly as much to tech and build the hydras, only the tech and the hydras themselves have no other useful purpose. Your oponent builds no more of those units- and ythe hydras die nearly instantly the next time you use them in a fight. In the meantime- the hydras consume supply, which limits you're ability to react or be agressive until you get rid of the hydras. So your best option is to simply throw the hydras away in a purely sacrificial move? A hydra drop? More than 1 unit comes from every structure that builds a unit that hydras counter- but a hydra den gets you....hydras & access to a range upgrade that they are almost useless without because of their slow speed. Thowing down the tech structure for a specific threat like that- isn't a big deal in the late game- but the hydra is a T2 unit, and incapable of contributing anything like what infestors/ or mutas are capable of. So why would any zerg pick hydras as their choice for their first T2 unit? They wouldn't - they'd pick the infestor or the muta if they're smart, because those units create great options for agressive play- while the hydra does not. The units that a hydra counters best are also countered quite well by the spire units or the infestor. If zerg techs to hydras- they're giving up the infestor or the muta as an agressive option in the midgame. And replacing those units with speed or spells with a unit that has neither, has no armor, and has very little health. They are too costly in terms of resources and supply to attain it's potential as a dps machine- before it's hard counters are on the field. Is there even a hydra rush build, beyond an all in strat to sort of punish a FE. No one says- "I like these lings & roaches- BUT I just gotta have 5 hydras to make this army ready to kick @$$" But they do say- I'd like to add 2 seige tanks/ 2 immortals/ or 4 roaches & an infestor. (which can all be had for pretty much the same tech, research, and unit cost)

    Does anyone have a replay of a roach/hydra timing push?
    11/28/2011 09:53 AMPosted by Schwaz
    It Still Makes Me Annoyed That People Go Out Of Their Way To Use Title Case.


    It bothers you when it is used in the thread title? Seems to me like that's the appropriate place to use it.


    Seriously.

    Most of the time, people love to get on your case for bad grammer and other types of bad writing.

    This is the first time I can remember someone complaining about doing something correctly.
    11/28/2011 04:29 PMPosted by Terry
    Does anyone have a replay of a roach/hydra timing push?


    Roach hydra timing pushes are terrible. You may as well just go hydra/ling and hit earlier with the exact same power.
    11/28/2011 02:12 AMPosted by Wrath
    They counter immortals, that should be enough.


    Firstly, why is Protoss building immortals against Zerg when zerglings are too effective when not in a choke and stalkers are nearly as effective with blink and don't suck quite so much against zerglings? In other words, immortals are great at countering/stalling roach heavy pressure until colossus or HT come out, but aren't really feared by zerg.

    Secondly, upgraded immortals do very well against hydras. True, Protoss can't mass them at the same speed, but the ones you have will pull their weight. The fear is from zerglings not fragile hydras. (This is of course before the recent range buff. Immortals may actually soft counter hydras now.)

    11/28/2011 01:31 PMPosted by StraeHael
    I have been seeing hydras used in so many tournaments lately. They are actually really, really good until the Protoss can get colossi out. Which means delayed templar/air play.


    The ones I've seen have all been in response to heavy stargate play/timing push, though I don't watch as much as I should. What game in particular are you thinking of or is a good example of showing how hydras can be used effectively in normal play (zealot stalker sentry)? I'm especially skeptical that they can handle chargelots anywhere but in a choke.
    11/28/2011 02:12 AMPosted by Wrath
    They counter immortals, that should be enough.


    Actually, Immortals %#!!%!*@ Hydralisks for cost lmao.

    And you can't even put Roaches in front as a meat shield because Immortals kill those even faster.

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