To all the Zergs saying nerf FF on the Ramp

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11/24/2011 10:23 AMPosted by BigProbe
Make queens massive.

^ This.

The problem with the sentry drop is that it comes too fast for you to have mutas, and the only way to scout it is to have your overlords in position to see the warp prism flying in (build order scouting does nothing.) Then even if you scout it, it's insta-win if you don't have forces already split between your main and your natural to kill the sentries as they land. If you have forces in your main the drop your natural, and if you have forces in your natural they drop your main...
I whole-heartedly agree that if a Protoss pushes on you, makes it into and your main, and then FFs your ramp... you're screwed and its your fault.

Its the sentry drops accompanied by a warp in that I personally feel is too much.

Its never happened to me, so anyone who feels the need can drop the league bashing before it happens, I'm talking purely from pro games.

a sentry drop followed by FFing the ramp negates skill of the zerg player, and that is where the problem lies. There should not be any situation in an RTS that negates a players skill. If you're on 2 or more bases, there is no reason your army would in your main, period.

If a zerg player has been on top of their macro, which is to be expected at a pro level, the max larave available in their main should be less than 10. Thats all the zerg player has to defend their main base, those drones, and all their tech, because if they can't immediately hold with larvae available right then, they will never have enough, period. This is because Protoss can continue to warp in under the prism, so while protoss gets a a larger army, as long as there is 1 sentry with FF energy, zerg will continually get less and less, especially if key tech is sniped. (This is where I feel like FFing my ramp would not be as big a deal, because my macro slips from time to time, and I have extra larvae available lol)

In these situations, it doesn't matter how good the zerg player, even in relation to the skill level of protoss, and thats the problem. They zerg player could be much better than the toss, and still lose because the protoss had free rein in the main, and just ended everything. Thats not right.

Zerg has only 2 units that deal with an FF on their ramp in these situations (ultras will not be out when prism drop and FF is most effective), roaches and mutas; and the roaches are only even useable if burrow and claws have been researched. Mutas shouldn't be sitting around if they are on the field and the player is good, they should be harrassing. This means it will take a while for the mutas to get back, meaning toss could potentially warp in what was needed to fight them off in the zerg main. (sentry GS, plus some stalkers will do fine in a lot of cases, especially since zerg should be focusing on killing the prism) And for roaches to be effective, toss needs to not have obs (which is weird since they have a prism), and to allow them to make the trip under the FF without taking pot shots (stalkers counter roaches, especially burrowed roaches lol)

So, long story shot, sentry drop with FF and warp in is stupid only because it negates the zerg players skill.


Posted by BigProbe
Make queens massive.

no.. because now phoenix cant lift them up.
11/24/2011 05:22 PMPosted by Darkpie
no.. because now phoenix cant lift them up.


If phoenix can't lift them up, wouldn't that be a good thing?
11/24/2011 05:24 PMPosted by SeriusBizNis
If phoenix can't lift them up, wouldn't that be a good thing?

Lol no phoenix harrass would be even less used if that happened, perhaps extinct because why build towers when you can build queens? and VRs do extra dmg to them as well
Pros/GM players are using fast muta and fast overlord drops to counter warp prism play - doing a drop in their base while they're WP'ing your base works very well, and you can negate the effect of forcefield altogether by dropping troops up where the warp prism is located or going for fast air plays.

Making queens massive would be a mistake, it would make phoenixes much less useful in that matchup while making voids very OP in the early game.
I don't mind it
Okay anyone complaining about a warp prism+4 sentry drop is a bit oblivious. Think about it, they drop 4 sentries, but all you really need to do to shut the attack down is to have enough forces on the side they drop on to kill 4 sentries in ~15 seconds. If you can do that, they can only get off one forcefield, and then the threat is gone and they've just wasted a huge amount of resources. If they try warping in 4 zealots (at the earliest timing they aren't going to have more than 4 warpgates, if they have more than you should have way more than enough to be prepared for the drop), then they won't be able to continue FF'ing your ramp because their sentries are dead, and 4 zealots alone are only a temporary problem. If they try warping in more sentries, you just kill them. The key is being prepared, which really isn't that hard, and isn't much of a sacrificed compared to not being prepared and losing right there.

Where defending really gets tricky is against a protoss air opening --> the warp prism + sentry drop. This is probably much less common, as it takes very good control to pull off (i've seen oGsMC do it I think). This is considerably more difficult to prepare for (which makes sense since it's much harder to execute as well), but it is still possible. The warp prism will be much more delayed if the toss is doing this build, giving you enough time to get out either mutas or hydralisks, which will shut down the drop even more since hydras and mutas can kill the warp prism quite quickly if they focus it down.

People are complaining about the warp prism + sentry being "hard" to prepare for, but the point is that it's still possible to prepare for. It might not be easy, and you might have to stay alert and have good map awareness, but the same is true for any other timing attack, whether it be a speedling runby, baneling bust, hellion runby, mass muta harass (not necessarily a timing attack, but they can devour an undefended worker line in a second), DT rush, cloaked banshees, burrowed roaches, burrowed infestors, nydus worm, overlord doomdrop, MMM drops, blink stalkers, HT drop, etc. Yeah it's a long list, but these are all powerful things that players need to be prepared to defend against, and warp prism+sentry drop is just one more thing that's added to it. It may be used a lot now, but that's just because it's new and hip and zergs haven't really gotten used it yet, but in time that will no longer be the case.

TL;DR - Yeah, it's a deadly strategy that requires preparation to deal with. There's a lot of them.
FF is not the problem
FF on ramp has gotten way more viable with the Warp Prism buff.
after seeing it used at MLG numerous times, often Protoss was behind and came out way ahead.
Its a abused mechanic that is especially broken against Zerg.



"Naniwa is down 62 supply to 116, i dont see a way he can get out of this tasteless.... But an amazing force field on the ramp, Naniwa is going to clear out the main and kill all of those drones... Yah but Nestea is going for a counter attack, Brilliant forcefield blocking those roaches out of Naniwa's base! Naniwa wins!"

Those were pretty much direct quotes from this MLG... forcefield is too good on ramps.


I'm pretty sure this thread was talking about early game forcefields if the supplys are 62 and 116 I see no reason why you couldn't have a nydus or drop or even tunnel to bypass the forcefield at that point in the game.
How about just allowing Zerg units to burrow under FF's? Unless it's a large force that you let walk up your ramp, early FF pressure can be negated with Roach/Investor play...
I happen to like Forcefields.
Zerg Ability suggestion

crush, minerals 100 gas 100, researched at spawning pool

a single forcefield covering an area as large as itself can be crushed if multiple zerg units move into that space

EDIT: It sounds really dumb but just an idea perhaps that can be improved on.
Lets think about this.

In the opening 10 minutes of the game what is there to actually fear from a protoss player?

1) Stargate play is pretty weak due to queens and the abilility to build 1 spore crawler and even then you don't have to cut drones.

2) 4/5 gate. What makes this build scary? Roaches cost half the price of stalkers and kill zealots, stalkers, and sentries. What single abilility enables protoss to kill the zerg army? It is the force field, the ability to pin armies in their base, push armies aroudn, and restrict movement.

It seems like you want to nerf ff so you can do nothing but drone for the opening 10 minutes. I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. FF should not be touched without some other major changes to the game and I find it is very easy to counter if are concerned by a 5 gate to just put a couple of spines in front of the ramp and widdle the sentries down.


You can't just say "stargate bad b/c of queens and spore crawlers". That is exactly the kind of nonsensical statement that does not belong in a balance discussion. You can't just disregard an entire tech switch by simply mentioning their counters. Stargate play is a strong and valid tech tree, i assure you. IT can be hidden, you can go 2-3 stargates, phoenix kill drones even when spores and queens are out. There are plenty of reasons why stargates are good
Only reason FF exists is here:

David Kim: OH! I got an idea! Let's "spice" up protoss by making their Tier 1 Units useless early game!
Dustin Browder: YOUR BRILLIANT!!!!
David Kim: Indeed! And let's give them a spell that is terrible design to mooch some money off ppl that are loyal to Blizzard!
Dustin Browder: YOUR BRILLIANT!!!!
David Kim: This spell can be abused heavily and make my fellow terrans/zergs call protoss OP!
Roland McDonald: I'm LOVIN' IT!
Lets think about this.

In the opening 10 minutes of the game what is there to actually fear from a protoss player?

1) Stargate play is pretty weak due to queens and the abilility to build 1 spore crawler and even then you don't have to cut drones.

2) 4/5 gate. What makes this build scary? Roaches cost half the price of stalkers and kill zealots, stalkers, and sentries. What single abilility enables protoss to kill the zerg army? It is the force field, the ability to pin armies in their base, push armies aroudn, and restrict movement.

It seems like you want to nerf ff so you can do nothing but drone for the opening 10 minutes. I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. FF should not be touched without some other major changes to the game and I find it is very easy to counter if are concerned by a 5 gate to just put a couple of spines in front of the ramp and widdle the sentries down.


You can't just say "stargate bad b/c of queens and spore crawlers". That is exactly the kind of nonsensical statement that does not belong in a balance discussion. You can't just disregard an entire tech switch by simply mentioning their counters. Stargate play is a strong and valid tech tree, i assure you. IT can be hidden, you can go 2-3 stargates, phoenix kill drones even when spores and queens are out. There are plenty of reasons why stargates are good


I'm not disregarding air play, I'm putting it in its proper context when you play zerg in the opening 10 minutes. Queens are cheap, important, and normally plentiful by the time the first void ray or phoenix hits. The spore buff complicated things even further and made early air play more for early map control and defense against roaches.

I do use air play, but if tends to be on huge maps like taldarim where I don't have to worry about a bunch of hydralisks busting my front entrance open after I run around with my phoenixs and normally, if the zerg is competent, get a few overlords, a queen, and maybe even delay a 3rd. If you notice a common theme to this though, you'll note what I'm not doing. I'm not making him build units instead of drones. Maybe he'll make a few spores but that is the limit of normal air play offense.

ff demands that level of respect since it is precisely the ability to seperate armies or keep units in his base that makes it scary. Contrary to popular belief, ff uses a lot of energy especially if you're going out early to put pressure on. You have to utilzie narrow chokes, especially entrance ramps to maximize the effectivness of ff. Roaches are half the price of a stalker, ff better be powerful in order to compensate for this. It is the only reason zerg builds units early on.

If you want to complain about sentry drops with blink stalkers I will agree with you on that, it is cheap and unfair. I don't find it that much cheaper than mutaslisks or the 1-1-1 though. They are all stupid and probably won't be fixed till the expansion.

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