Why Ravens Suck in TvP

General Discussion

That is a really, really lame comparison. We'll say MEDIVACS aren't great? Come on dude get out of here...


I have seen worse, more than once, from pro player.

Have a quote?
Day9 has stated that just because a certain unit did not work in a game, you shouldn't write it off. In fact, what you should try is using a different number. Try more than one raven. Try different combinations. I'm not sure the raven is the answer to using mmm against collos, templar, chargelot. It does, however, work wonders with banshees.

I recognize you're masters OP and I respect that, but I think you should try some different stuff. You certainly can't argue in a couple sentences a point like this so try again.


I agree that ravens are not good at all against chargelot/archon and Collosus. I disagree that they are good with banshees though. They both are made from the same building (starport with tech lab) and both take 60 seconds to make. Unless you are going pure air, there's just not enough time and resources to get a useful amount of them out.
Why ravens rock:

I'd change chrono for orbital abilities ANY DAY.


No you wouldn't.


Yes, I would. Mule = 5 gate ftw :-P

Scanning = no need for emergency robo/cannon. My nexus first build would be so much nicer if I could simply scan if cloak shows up (rather than having to risk going fast robo, fast forge + cannons or praying 'no cloak no cloak no cloak' til the 8 minute mark.

I like protoss so I play protoss. I do not find any particular race "hard to play", although I do think I am to old to have the apm to play zerg effectively. I am not saying one race is better than another or that one race is harder to play than another (although for me, zerg is harder). I am fairly confident than the income boost from mules would be great.
Day9 has stated that just because a certain unit did not work in a game, you shouldn't write it off. In fact, what you should try is using a different number. Try more than one raven. Try different combinations. I'm not sure the raven is the answer to using mmm against collos, templar, chargelot. It does, however, work wonders with banshees.

I recognize you're masters OP and I respect that, but I think you should try some different stuff. You certainly can't argue in a couple sentences a point like this so try again.


I agree that ravens are not good at all against chargelot/archon and Collosus. I disagree that they are good with banshees though. They both are made from the same building (starport with tech lab) and both take 60 seconds to make. Unless you are going pure air, there's just not enough time and resources to get a useful amount of them out.


Learn 1/1/1 raven builds. They are annoying :-( Raven + 1 viking + 3-4 banshees is also a killer build. Just use the raven + viking to kill obs before running away. The banshees do mad damage. Later come in with your small ground forces (with tank pref.) and clean up any defense that exists.


It would be more accurate to say something like "under the current metagame, I do not see a use for ravens". That's about all your narrow perspective can accurately state.



I have seen worse, more than once, from pro player.

Have a quote?


"DT are way better than banshee"
"Roaches are a useless unit"
"No one will use broodlord anymore"
"Warp prism change will make drop OP vs terran",
"This range change on the roaches will do absolutly noting"
"Carriers are great if.. "
"Archons will now destoy everytying zerg has"
"Sometime its hard to scout has terran when they.."
"Ghost are not that useful vs Zergs"
OP thinks he knows better than pros who use Ravens all the time.
12/01/2011 10:20 AMPosted by ChewBiscuit
OP thinks he knows better than pros who use Ravens all the time.


Got some TvP examples that aren't 1/1/1 or early DT related?



I agree that ravens are not good at all against chargelot/archon and Collosus. I disagree that they are good with banshees though. They both are made from the same building (starport with tech lab) and both take 60 seconds to make. Unless you are going pure air, there's just not enough time and resources to get a useful amount of them out.


Learn 1/1/1 raven builds. They are annoying :-( Raven + 1 viking + 3-4 banshees is also a killer build. Just use the raven + viking to kill obs before running away. The banshees do mad damage. Later come in with your small ground forces (with tank pref.) and clean up any defense that exists.


It would be more accurate to say something like "under the current metagame, I do not see a use for ravens". That's about all your narrow perspective can accurately state.


You want us to resort back to 1/1/1? If you're doing 1/1/1 and want to get a raven + 3-4 banshees with cloak and a viking, and tanks, that's gonna take 6+ minutes to make after getting the starport and you probably won't have enough gas to make tanks anyway. And 1/1/1 is innefective after about the 10 minute mark anyway.
12/01/2011 10:23 AMPosted by Slurf
OP thinks he knows better than pros who use Ravens all the time.


Got some TvP examples that aren't 1/1/1 or early DT related?


Watch GSL.


Learn 1/1/1 raven builds. They are annoying :-( Raven + 1 viking + 3-4 banshees is also a killer build. Just use the raven + viking to kill obs before running away. The banshees do mad damage. Later come in with your small ground forces (with tank pref.) and clean up any defense that exists.


It would be more accurate to say something like "under the current metagame, I do not see a use for ravens". That's about all your narrow perspective can accurately state.


You want us to resort back to 1/1/1? If you're doing 1/1/1 and want to get a raven + 3-4 banshees with cloak and a viking, and tanks, that's gonna take 6+ minutes to make after getting the starport and you probably won't have enough gas to make tanks anyway. And 1/1/1 is innefective after about the 10 minute mark anyway.


asd in gsl earlier this week. Watch it. It may surprise you how dominating that was.
12/01/2011 10:23 AMPosted by Slurf
OP thinks he knows better than pros who use Ravens all the time.


Got some TvP examples that aren't 1/1/1 or early DT related?


Boxer vs .. MMA? Mlg, air terran v air terran? insane stand off pdd and nuke droped everywhere
An other TvT, Mech vs bio, Raven drop pdd, the mech roll over the marauder heavy army. Was in GSL, dont know wich tvt, they where so many but thats tvt i guess..

There was one game on terminus a PvT, dont know who was playing, terran kept droping turrets in the mineral lines of the protoss, he had like 3-4 raven. It was a super cool game. In GSL october i think. Even pro dont use raven much, but they didnt have too mmm and 1/1/1 did everything.
Wait...why are you mentioning TvT? We're talking about TvP only...

And please, if anyone knows the recent game(s) let me know. I don't have a subscription this month, but if you specify which game..it's likely I can find it. Not so much without knowing which game.
[quote][quote]

asd in gsl earlier this week. Watch it. It may surprise you how dominating that was.


I want to see that, who did he play?
In GSL, the only matchup Ravens aren't used in is TvZ if I'm remembering correctly.

EVERY TvT (unless it's some 1 base all in) they make Ravens to block Viking fire.

Many TvPs Ravens are used and not just in 1/1/1 all-ins.
Nov. 30th, GSL

Game 2 ASD vs. Hero

Game 2 SuperNova vs. Squirtle
[quote][quote]

asd in gsl earlier this week. Watch it. It may surprise you how dominating that was.


I want to see that, who did he play?


Hero if I remember correctly. Hero lost 1-2.


Thors are !@#$ing beasts. They aren't imba but they are close :-P

I never understand why terrans don't make them more often. 10 or so scvs repairing thors with marines behind them are almost unbeatable. I did tests in unit tester. Pretty much the only counter is insane numbers of colossi (which would be obliterated by a scan + tech switch) or carriers (same thing).

I think part of the problem is terran are looking for a single unit composition that would always be good. However, any such unit composition would be, by its very definition, imbalanced. No single unit composition should be able to handle EVERYTHING.
12/01/2011 10:49 AMPosted by Eldin
Pretty much the only counter is insane numbers of colossi (which would be obliterated by a scan + tech switch) or carriers (same thing).


High templar seems the most obvious counter to me.
12/01/2011 10:52 AMPosted by Slurf
Pretty much the only counter is insane numbers of colossi (which would be obliterated by a scan + tech switch) or carriers (same thing).


High templar seems the most obvious counter to me.


How so? Thors have a lot of hps. They are large, so you would only hit 1 (with some scvs if they are slow to respond). I tried it in the unit tester and it didn't work well at all.
Storm the SCVs?

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