Why Ravens Suck in TvP

General Discussion
Why ravens rock:

Only 200 gas and shuts down all stalkers for a significant period of time.

Question: what is the ratio of PDDs to Stalkers that is required to shut down the stalkers for a "significant period of time"? Because 1 PDD isn't going to nullify 20 Stalkers, unless 1.44 seconds is your idea of significant period of time.
Why ravens rock:

Only 200 gas and shuts down all stalkers for a significant period of time.

Question: what is the ratio of PDDs to Stalkers that is required to shut down the stalkers for a "significant period of time"? Because 1 PDD isn't going to nullify 20 Stalkers, unless 1.44 seconds is your idea of significant period of time.


Apparently the pros that use them think they work. Ask ASD. If Ravens are good against Liquid_Hero they're going to be good against anything you encounter on ladder.
12/01/2011 11:12 AMPosted by KinetiC
There's a reason why professional players don't use ravens


Pros use Ravens. Examples have been given, both games from yesterday in the GSL.
OMG!

Ravens suck because they can be countered by something.

That's why Terran always makes Marines; there is no counter to them.
PDD>Stalkers (and also carriers/phenixes, but no one uses those)
PDD>Stalkers (and also carriers/phenixes, but no one uses those)


It actually doesn't work on carriers.


Question: what is the ratio of PDDs to Stalkers that is required to shut down the stalkers for a "significant period of time"? Because 1 PDD isn't going to nullify 20 Stalkers, unless 1.44 seconds is your idea of significant period of time.


Apparently the pros that use them think they work. Ask ASD. If Ravens are good against Liquid_Hero they're going to be good against anything you encounter on ladder.


These games just further emphasize why Terran needs to win the game early. Find me a recent game where the game goes on for 20+ minutes with Terran still going for ravens/mech.


Apparently the pros that use them think they work. Ask ASD. If Ravens are good against Liquid_Hero they're going to be good against anything you encounter on ladder.


These games just further emphasize why Terran needs to win the game early. Find me a recent game where the game goes on for 20+ minutes with Terran still going for ravens/mech.


If I do, you'll just then counter with "Find me a recent game where the game goes for 30+ minutes with Terran still going for ravens/mech."

Also, I wasn't making a case for mech, just the Raven. I rarely see mech vs. Toss, but ASD showed it can be done.

Trust me, if Mech can work against Liquid_Hero, it can work against the people you're playing on ladder.


These games just further emphasize why Terran needs to win the game early. Find me a recent game where the game goes on for 20+ minutes with Terran still going for ravens/mech.
Games don't have to be that long at pro-level because pros are more efficient than you would ever be at a build. 17 mins ~20 mins is long enough to showcase the strength of a build. Also, ASD was on 3 bases; meaning that the strategy was not a timing attack, and was a macro strategy. If Protoss was able to survive that and come back with more tech, then guess what we have?

An even balanced matchup. Right now, I am not calling it imbalanced, but rather that it is unheard of as of yet. ASD came up with a new strategy that works, that worked to punish HerO's tech choice. I think it is high time Terrans start thinking like ASD and Jjakji have.


Oh, and for 20+ min games, watch the IMMvp vs Squirtle game, and the Jinro vs MC series. Oh, and do watch ThorZain's mech games too please.


The herO v asd game only had 1 raven out and it barely did anything. The outcome would have been the same even without the raven. There's simply no point in getting one.


The herO v asd game only had 1 raven out and it barely did anything. The outcome would have been the same even without the raven. There's simply no point in getting one.
Actually, it would have been different because the PDD kept the banshees alive, and made the stalkers useless, allowing thors to screw them royally.

You missed that.


Kept the banshees alive? Only one banshee survived, all the other ones died to storm/feedback.


I recommend you stop nitpicking and accept the fact that Raven, if used correctly, are actually very dangerous to Protoss armies.


Ravens aren't really good against the people I play against because most of them go chargelot/archon but I guess in Plat league then I see it being viable.
There's a reason why professional players don't use ravens


It's the same reason I don't use ravens..

They suck. They're garbage. They're 200 gas. The spells are incredibly weak. All of them. PDD isn't even strong... It's cool but it's not nearly as strong as people say it is. Its only strong when you all in as terran and the protoss made a few more stalkers than he should have... that is the one specific case where it's good.

Other than that, it's just the most expensive detecting unit in the game.. which is all I ever get it for in TvT or TvP.

The unit is pure !@#$... it sucks.


Idk about the raven being worth it (personally I think it's ridiculous that it's not but I'm not good enough to have an opinion worth anything) but it's certainly not a !@#$ unit. A fully charged raven can set down two PDDs and regardless of how long it lasts, that'd be 800 damage mitigated. If toss FBs them, then those are two fewer FBs they can use on your ghosts, thors, banshees, ravens, or god forbid, your BCs =p.

Really, they're not a %^-* unit, quite a good support caster if you ask me (which no one should)
[quote]Day9 has stated that just because a certain unit did not work in a game, you shouldn't write it off. In fact, what you should try is using a different number. Try more than one raven. Try different combinations. I'm not sure the raven is the answer to using mmm against collos, templar, chargelot. It does, however, work wonders with banshees.

I recognize you're masters OP and I respect that, but I think you should try some different stuff. You certainly can't argue in a couple sentences a point like this so try again.


I agree that ravens are not good at all against chargelot/archon and Collosus. I disagree that they are good with banshees though. They both are made from the same building (starport with tech lab) and both take 60 seconds to make. Unless you are going pure air, there's just not enough time and resources to get a useful amount of them out.


If you've truly put in the hours of testing I can accept this answer. But you bring no proof. No replays of you trying to utilize the raven. No replays from pros using the raven. You just say it's impossible. I want to see someone actually put effort into using the raven.


I recommend you stop nitpicking and accept the fact that Raven, if used correctly, are actually very dangerous to Protoss armies.


Ravens aren't really good against the people I play against because most of them go chargelot/archon but I guess in Plat league then I see it being viable.


Who knew the GSL, where Terrans use the Raven, was Plat league?

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