Why terran didnt QQ about chargelots before?

General Discussion
They have always existed, the only buff the got its landing a hit before the charge runs out, which wasnt that big.

Chargelots always existed, terran NEVER used blue flame hellions to counter them, yet they didnt QQ.

Now they are QQing about them, saying that because hellions got nerfed now they get roflstomped by zealots, but nothing has changed about chargelots.

So, is it a hidden EMP nerf QQ?

Discuss.
Emp was never that great vs zealots. I don't know what you're talking about.
Because there was no problem with Chargelots, Blizzard just wanted to give something for Terran complain about. Everyone knows that David Kim favors Terran.
They have always existed, the only buff the got its landing a hit before the charge runs out, which wasnt that big.

Chargelots always existed, terran NEVER used blue flame hellions to counter them, yet they didnt QQ.

Now they are QQing about them, saying that because hellions got nerfed now they get roflstomped by zealots, but nothing has changed about chargelots.

So, is it a hidden EMP nerf QQ?

Discuss.

One, hellions don't really counter chargelots in a straight out fight, especially after the blue flame upgrade nerf. They are too squishy as well, hence why terrans are getting the battle hellion form in HOTS..

Two, the nerf to EMP changed things up big time along with the upgrade changes to cause protoss to focus on upgrading earlier. Ghosts used to be able to EMP the archons and protoss casters while still being able to EMP the rest of the protoss to even things out a little, but now it's just not that feasible to do so.
11/29/2011 06:43 PMPosted by CupOfWin
Emp was never that great vs zealots. I don't know what you're talking about.


removing 1/3 of a units health is never a bad thing, and seeing as terran now can't afford to mindlessly blanket an army in EMP, that's a much better chargelot to be staring at.
Terrans never QQ'd about KA until is was suggested for removal then they all screamed about how OP it was.

Terrans once they discovered vikings didn't QQ about deathball until zerg went on a mass rant

Terrans didn't QQ about chargelots until Blizzard gave them hellion battlemode 'cause terrans were struggling late game vs chargelot archon'

Terrans typically won't QQ until someone says theres an imbalance
I'm trying to figure it out myself. It's the same thing that happened with Hellions... They'd been in the game since forever, but didn't get complained about until the Slayers team started doing some nasty BFH stuff during... can't remember the tournament, think it was MLG Columbus? Can't recall.

I mean the only real changes is EMP and upgrades, yet Zealots are what's complained about. None of the other units that benefit from an EMP reduction and cheaper upgrades are complained about, just Zealots.

As far as Zealots go, yeah, they're a good unit, we always knew that. They exceed stim-less marines in dps and have more health at the cost of being susceptible to kites (ever seen an MM ball kite Zealots while only 2-3 Zealots can hit at one time? It's nasty). They're inferior to zerglings in terms of damage per cost, but slightly pull ahead in health, and vary between winning and losing depending on the presence of a choke.

With upgrades, more Protoss are upgrading early, but it doesn't really make Zealots better than they were before, the upgrade just come out a bit earlier since it's more affordable. It can't be related to EMP since Zealots are specifically the one Protoss unit that isn't very susceptible to it anyways.

I'm at a loss.

Terrans never QQ'd about KA until is was suggested for removal then they all screamed about how OP it was.



My god, I remember that. I remember looking at how the forums were ERUPTING with rage over KA, even though I'd never heard of any complaints before. I didn't even know KA was that good! I'd avoid researching it myself in favor of getting another HT out, then just planning ahead. I was confused as hell when it was considered for removal. If I'd heard people QQing about it before, I'd have started using it, but no, it wasn't till its removal was announced that I heard it was actually supposed to be good.
Sigh, too many of this topic already. Just go dig up the old post. I think you should find a couple on each page of the forum. For quick reasoning, chargelot got stronger was not due to EMP nerf.
One, hellions don't really counter chargelots in a straight out fight. They are too squishy, hence why terrans are getting the battle hellion form in HOTS.


That's exactly the point though! A unit that's good at harass should not be good in a straight up fight unless they're not being hit. Think about the DT or the Muta. Both can do giant damage, given that they're not hit! All three of these units rip apart large ball like armies, and all are squishy. Why is that unfair?

Oh, and landed vikings are actually really good against chargelots. True story.
Depends on who you ask:

Some will say that the emp radius nerf makes it harder to get a good hit off on the chargelots, but ghosts do bonus to light and having them in your composition helps with chargelots anyway. Additionally, it only takes 1 emp to completely reduce a chargelot's shield. On top of that, chargelots take up as much grid space as 1 marine, making them just as tightly packed before they charge (which is when you should be abusing EMP's 10 range anyway).

Some will say it was the hellion pre-igniter nerf, even going so far as to say that "blizzard removed the only counter to chargelots". However, this nerf was done solely for TvP, and chargelots are still countered per cost by hellions and marines: http://hotfile.com/dl/136316987/6af3033/Unit_Test_Map_(3).SC2Replay.html

I get the feeling that mostly, it comes from terrans reading too much into the addition of the battlehellion. It was noted that "terrans have some difficulties with lategame chargelots", and "the battle hellion was added as a beefy attack-move solution to them". Notice that they never say that there is no viable solution to chargelots, or that chargelots are impossible to counter, or any of the dozen other things people attribute to this statement.

It's the same as protoss suddenly having trouble with mass muta after the tempest was announced: There were few if any threads about it before the tempest announcement, but now from the protoss discussion forums you'd think that as soon as a zerg drops a spire they get 100% winrate. It's like once people get it in their heads that it's a problem, it's all they can talk about. There were very few threads about chargelots and very few threads about mutas in TvP and PvZ respectively, until these new units were announced.
Terrans never QQ'd about KA until is was suggested for removal then they all screamed about how OP it was.

Terrans once they discovered vikings didn't QQ about deathball until zerg went on a mass rant

Terrans didn't QQ about chargelots until Blizzard gave them hellion battlemode 'cause terrans were struggling late game vs chargelot archon'

Terrans typically won't QQ until someone says theres an imbalance


I don't think any terran was QQing about KA removal. The removal was out of nowhere. Apparently, it was more for ZERG than Terran.

I didn't see any QQ about chargelot after Battle hellion introduction. I saw plenty after the last patch.

If you want QQ, then talk to any protoss on this forum for the last 3 months. Apparently, they like to QQ about EVERYTHING.
Honestly in my opinion chargelots arn't op, but terran has a really hard time dealing with them in certain situations. I think it depends mostly on the positioning. Hopefully HotS gives more options for both races and the meta can evolve into something better, its kind of stale now.
Why didn't zerg complain about 5rax reaper before it was invented? Nothing changed to increase its power.
I get the feeling that mostly, it comes from terrans reading too much into the addition of the battlehellion. It was noted that "terrans have some difficulties with lategame chargelots", and "the battle hellion was added as a beefy attack-move solution to them". Notice that they never say that there is no viable solution to chargelots, or that chargelots are impossible to counter, or any of the dozen other things people attribute to this statement.

It's the same as protoss suddenly having trouble with mass muta after the tempest was announced: There were few if any threads about it before the tempest announcement, but now from the protoss discussion forums you'd think that as soon as a zerg drops a spire they get 100% winrate. It's like once people get it in their heads that it's a problem, it's all they can talk about. There were very few threads about chargelots and very few threads about mutas in TvP and PvZ respectively, until these new units were announced.

These units being announced and the reason why they are being added in did get people experimenting more with said units I think. Zealots were already being more popular to use in PVT but I think when the battle hellion was announced and the reason why it was being added in, protoss players started putting more emphasis on them in their armies and are finding out they are good doing such things.

Terrans are able to counter chargelots but it requires the terran to put in more micro to do so. Against chargelot/archon/high templar, terrans pretty much are forced to do alot of kiting to deal with it. You box a terran in and prevent them from being able to kite that army composition and the terran loses.
Depends on who you ask:

Some will say that the emp radius nerf makes it harder to get a good hit off on the chargelots, but ghosts do bonus to light and having them in your composition helps with chargelots anyway. Additionally, it only takes 1 emp to completely reduce a chargelot's shield. On top of that, chargelots take up as much grid space as 1 marine, making them just as tightly packed before they charge (which is when you should be abusing EMP's 10 range anyway).

Some will say it was the hellion pre-igniter nerf, even going so far as to say that "blizzard removed the only counter to chargelots". However, this nerf was done solely for TvP, and chargelots are still countered per cost by hellions and marines: http://hotfile.com/dl/136316987/6af3033/Unit_Test_Map_(3).SC2Replay.html

I get the feeling that mostly, it comes from terrans reading too much into the addition of the battlehellion. It was noted that "terrans have some difficulties with lategame chargelots", and "the battle hellion was added as a beefy attack-move solution to them". Notice that they never say that there is no viable solution to chargelots, or that chargelots are impossible to counter, or any of the dozen other things people attribute to this statement.

It's the same as protoss suddenly having trouble with mass muta after the tempest was announced: There were few if any threads about it before the tempest announcement, but now from the protoss discussion forums you'd think that as soon as a zerg drops a spire they get 100% winrate. It's like once people get it in their heads that it's a problem, it's all they can talk about. There were very few threads about chargelots and very few threads about mutas in TvP and PvZ respectively, until these new units were announced.
This makes sense, maybe the problem was never there, Blizzard just "created" the problem by adding counters to what they considered "imbalanced" even though it wasnt.

I always though mutas were devastating against protoss in big maps though, especially when you didnt open with stargate.

I still cant figure what changed about chargelots, they were used before and terran just kited them with their MMM ball without recieving too much damage, perhaps its the upgrades buff?
Terrans are unhappy that they chose the race with all ranged units.

Ranged is supposed to have to kite melee to be optimal, this is a nearly universal truth in gaming, from DnD to WoW the Archer is supposed to kite the guy in full plate with a huge sword.

Protoss has one melee unit, and Terran complains that their ranged units can't stand toe-to-toe with it and have to kite, completely ignoring that this is a direct effect of playing a race with 0 melee units.

That's really all there is to it, Pros have no problems because they have no problem microing, but masters and below Terrans seem to feel they have the inalienable right to just mow down entire Protoss armies with Stim without having to stutter step, ignoring the fact that this is due to Protoss having a very sturdy melee unit while they have none.

Due to their >50% winrate in TvP every month since the launch of the game they have never even thought about it before, since EMP + Stim had always auto-won the lategame for them unless Terran made a huge positioning error.

But then Blizzard announced the Battle Hellion, and suddenly the fact that they play the race with no melee units makes them completely unable to win a game, or so they would have you believe.
11/29/2011 06:59 PMPosted by Slurf
Why didn't zerg complain about 5rax reaper before it was invented? Nothing changed to increase its power.


There's a difference between whining about a unit and whining about a strategy.
11/29/2011 07:09 PMPosted by Ironslice
Why didn't Protoss and Zerg QQ about BFH before the icon got changed to blue?


Did they whine more after? I don't recall reading anything about that (not saying it didn't happen, but I can't imagine how changing the icon resulted in any QQ at all lol)
11/29/2011 07:06 PMPosted by Steric
There's a difference between whining about a unit and whining about a strategy.


Fine.

Why didn't zerg complain about Reapers before 5rax reaper was invented?

Happy?

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