Zerg Aren't Swarmy

Zerg Discussion
Regardless of any balance issues I must say... Zerg just don't feel 'swarmy'.


Ok. You've got zerglings which are fairly 'swarmy' but that's only for about the first 7 minutes of the game. After that any race can make a blob almost as well as Zerg can. Furthermore so many zerg units require 2 pop it's retarded...

thoughts?
I personally think the swarm feel never leaves them. After 'lings, not so much but it's still there. But I do get your point.
^IMO a 'swamy' feel is when i've got atleast 2:1 ratio of units.

Generally it's roughly a 1:1.


Blizzard think swarm means you can rebuild your inferior army more rapidly b/c of larvae. I'd prefer to just have more of a horde to begin with.
Once Roach was taken from 1 supply to 2 supply the Swarm didn't Swarm anymore. SO yeah, I agree that the feeling of swarming is gone. My army is pretty much always the same size as my opponents. We need one more 1 supply unit. I mean if you went HEAVY Zergling you could still have that swarmy feeling, but Zergling is really the only unit you can feel it with. And just massing Zerglings to feel like the swarm will probably lose you the game. Just my thoughts on the matter. I don't believe any unit will be reduced to 1 supply though. In fact I'm pretty much 90% sure that it won't happen, but I do hope I am wrong...
agreed
I'd say the Zerg swarmyness mostly comes in the form of bells and whistles rather than major units. For example, supply comes in the form of units that can be sent patrolling around for greater map vision, and can become scanners or dropships while still being supply. Changlings and creep-tumors also increase map-vision, and have a swarmy feel to them. Specifically, creep-tumors create the vibe of cancerous exponential growth, which is a very swarmy thing. That's very different from Protoss, who have buildings for supply, and need to use up supply to get something that can give them extra map-vision.

In fact I'd say most of what distinguishes the races comes in the form of little bells and whistles rather than major units. Human war movies tend to be about small groups of heroes performing missions that are both sneaky and brave, and indeed humans in this game have the best dropship/soldier combo. A dropship sneaking into your main, and doing a ton of damage because they just won't die is very action heroey, even if it represents just a tiny fraction of the game.

Protoss have little bell-n-whistle abilities that very much mimic the aliens in stories where alien science is so weird and exotic that it is basically magic.
So good idea in this thread, some well founded minds here. What really bugs me when playing Zerg at above 12-15 minutes mark is that there is little to no air units beyond Broodlords and Coruptors, there's just that lonesomeness feeling when engaging other races. Just that tad bid hole of always the same thing games after games after games.
Zerg has never been swarmy in Sc2. The fungal nerf is really going to hurt Zerg in the next patch.
The zerg felt swarmy in broodwar, but they don't in lotv, so what happened. Hydras gained a +1 supply cost, rip hydra swarm. Guardians turned into brood lords and gained a +2 supply, so 1 brood lord = 2 guardians supply wise. Lurkers gained a +1 supply, so they cost three supply. We lost scourge, just why?????? Ultras gained a +2 supply. Queens couldn't spawn more larva in bw, which forced players to make more hatcheries/move out onto the map faster. The zerg don't feel swarmy in sc2 because they aren't swarmy, blizzard killed their swarmyness.

Just imagine what sc2 lotv zerg would have felt like if the game was balanced so that roaches and hydras cost one supply, Broodlords cost 2-3 supply, scourge existed, and lurkers cost 2 supply.

Idk, can we force a meme to convince blizzard to rebalance zerg to make them swarmy again, like #Make Zerg swarmy again, and then take trumps picture and slap a drone over his face?

Ultras in bw cost less supply, but they sucked because they could only attack one enemy at a time sooo ya ultras never felt swarmy, they are doomed to being an awkward oversized zergling for their entire existence.
08/19/2017 01:28 PMPosted by Migrax
Zerg has never been swarmy in Sc2. The fungal nerf is really going to hurt Zerg in the next patch.


true
They are technically swarmy, but it's mostly a bells and whistles kind of thing. Overlords, which is to say swarming units, instead of buildings. Queen inject in place of a power inherent to buildings. Changlings in place of scans. And creep tumors giving a vibe of exponential growth. So there is swarmyness, but it's almost like the racial bonuses in World of Warcraft: a little flavor thing rather than something hugely powerful or defining.
I was surprised too by the supply costs of Zerg in SC2, meaning a similar unit count as the other races.

Their "swarmyness" is now free timed life units. Broodlings, locusts, and infested.

They have more of a rapidly mutating feel, with all the units that change BLs, blings, ravs, & lurks.
08/11/2010 08:15 PMPosted by Pluto
Regardless of any balance issues I must say... Zerg just don't feel 'swarmy'.

Ok. You've got zerglings which are fairly 'swarmy' but that's only for about the first 7 minutes of the game. After that any race can make a blob almost as well as Zerg can. Furthermore so many zerg units require 2 pop it's retarded...

thoughts?


No, you are absolutely correct.

If you play Starcraft remastered, zerg is so much more swarm like then anything in SC2. Part of this has to do with the fact that Hydras are a 1 supply T1 unit and also that zerglings are fairly powerful in the early and late game. It is very common to have zerglings supported by defilers and some other unit (ultras, lurkers, hydras etc) and it makes the race feel more swarm like). Also, zerg units are typically the fastest units in the game in BW/remastered where as in SC2, aside from zerglings, zerg units are relatively slow compared to some of the other race units.

While its definitely fine to still use zerglings in all stages of the game in SC2, they aren't nearly as powerful in sc2 as they are in BW even with the adrenal glands upgrade. Zerg lost their swarm feel when Blizzard took roaches and made them into a 2 supply unit (in the original WoL closed beta they were a 1 supply unit). They've never really changed things back to the way they were prior to that change and its has had a lasting impact on the identity of the race since.

In fact, after playing mostly zerg in sc2 for years now, when I go to play SC:BW remastered, I'm finding myself more comfortable playing the protoss race then the zerg race despite the fact that I used to be a zerg main. This is because Protoss in BW feels more like Zerg does in SC2 then BW zerg does. The only thing that makes zerg feel semi-swarmish is the fact that they can remax faster then any other race, but even that isn't the same.
The "swarmy" feeling comes from units like brood lords, infestors and swarm hosts who spawn lots of smaller units.

Also. Huge necro, this thread is like 7 years old..
I do have to agree on the swarm part, be more fun with units with lesser health that pack a wallup than the ability to remax.
For a swarmy feel try Zagara co-op commander.

I was a Zerg player in Broodwar. That game was very swarmy. I would lose a large army and another would be right behind it. One army was attacking. Another army was on it's way to attack and I was creating a 3rd army. Wave after wave after wave.

I can't seem to do the same thing SC2.
In Starcraft: BW, Zergs had expensive units (mostly in gas) but they were low in supply. A Zerg usually fought off Terran and Protoss while being significantly lower in supply- but not UNITS. Zerg units as a whole cost less supply each- Zerglings, Scourge were half supply, Hydralisk were only one supply, where even the Vulture and Zealot were 2 supply.

Zergs were required to be very economical with larva- there was a lot less larva to play with. You always needed gas, but you had minimal drones produced to harvest minerals. Lower supply counts led to less overlords.
You would build just enough units to secure additional vespene geysers, and turning drones into sunken colonies was more realistic than trying to spend the larva on units to always defend.
You required multiple bases, and your defense was to use your unit speed and the nydus- to always meet any attacking force with the entirety of your own- which felt like swarming, even though if you counted up all the supply, the opponent probably had more, but they were simply still moving units out of their own base.

This was all just to get to T3, usually the Defiler, where Zerg would could cast, literally, "dark swarm", at which point Zerg would usually be strong enough to manage and preserve enough units and have enough hatcheries getting gas and larva that they really could begin climbing in supply. A 200 supply Zerg, of cracklings and ultralisk, or cracklings and hydralisk, with defilers and dark swarm, was really seen as a "swarm" and near unstoppable.

SC:BW created a "Swarm"-like feel to Zerg by actually giving them less to use and less to play with except for a few things, such as unit speed, and lower supply per unit, even though they had no creep speed bonus. You won't have that in SC2- Nothing is 1 supply but the drone, and a lot of things are 3 or more supply, and lots of Terran and Protoss units are almost just as fast, even over creep. Zerg rarely need to have more bases than Terran or Protoss, and are really the "economic, defensive race" instead.

The swarmiest thing in starcraft 2 is actually heavy marine terran bio.
The Zerg in SC2 are noticeably less swarmy than maxed out Terran bio or mass Zealot with Charge. To combat the feeling of injustice when Zealots can swarm your army better than your own Zerglings, can the Zerglings be given the jumping trait from campaign or co-op as either an inherant trait or a T2 or T3 upgrade? This would allow for easier engagements where your Zerglings aren't stuck behind your Roach/Hydralisk mob and easier base harass. Yes Droplords already fill this role of base harass, and will continue too. Some bases are only accessible by air, but later expansion bases should be inherently more vulnerable.
I feel that jumping Zerglings would make the Swarm just that little bit more Swarmy without unbalancing Blizzards software engineers (or the game) too much.

Food for thought. Instead of having Jumping Zerglings, perhaps have an upgrade for three Zerglings per larva as a T3 upgrade from the Spawning Pool.
I'll let other people decide what Mineral/Gas/Time cost it should have.

Second and far more radical suggestion to revive the Zerg Swarm feeling hopefully without unbalancing the game. Increase Zerg max supply to 400. Double Zerg units supply cost. Increase gas cost of T2 and T3 Zerg units by 25-40%. Lower supply costs for all T2 and T3 Zerg units by 30% with rounding; Alternatively reduce all Zerg units supply by one.
Goal. Zerg now can have more Zerglings in armys without negative supply impacts, other units have altered supply/cost ratios to offset this change without the use of decimal points in the supply count which I think Blizzard has avoided touching by instead altering unit stats. Additionally its to bring back the great feeling of mobbing/swarming that the Zerg had in SC and BW.

I would be very interested in knowing what the community thinks of my ideas.
Personally, I think that my "Jumpling" or jumping Zerglings are a good idea while my major game supply/unit-cost/rehash is a poor idea that will give me a heart attack (from shock) if Blizzard ever incorporates. The three Zerglings upgrade late game I feel would give a very smarmy feeling to the game but might have balance issues. However, since mass Zerglings aren't produced greatly late game, this might make them more viable throughout the late game.
My idea of a swarmy zerg is cheap inexpensive throw away units. Give the player the ability to spam units. Cheap units that are fast to produce. Send in wave after wave. Give the player the ability to expand behind successive waves. As the economy expands so does each subsequent waves until you reach a point were you blast thru the other guys defenses with superior numbers.

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