[Showcase]A Clash of Kings (Continued Continued)

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yea that puzzled me as well
Someone needs to write a Lannister guide. A lot of times I'll take Acorn Hill and Harrenhall then try to hit Renly to stop him before their fight inevitably ends and I get crushed by the full power of the south. When I do so, Arryn/Tully/GJ/Stark take my north lands so I need to run back and can never really kill off the south and eventually I get whittled down and die. Arryn or Tyrell help with one of the fronts, but they can't hold it on their own. What should I do at this point like 15 minutes into the game?
01/24/2013 05:08 PMPosted by LightsOutAce
Someone needs to write a Lannister guide. A lot of times I'll take Acorn Hill and Harrenhall then try to hit Renly to stop him before their fight inevitably ends and I get crushed by the full power of the south. When I do so, Arryn/Tully/GJ/Stark take my north lands so I need to run back and can never really kill off the south and eventually I get whittled down and die. Arryn or Tyrell help with one of the fronts, but they can't hold it on their own. What should I do at this point like 15 minutes into the game?


Hmm, I'm not a expert lanni. to be honest Ive only played lanni like 20 times, but unless i'm attempting solo, I try to ally arryn or greyjoy. To crush tully, while harrassing the south from time to time. both arryn or greyjoy are able to hit one side of the twins. while lannister (you) is able to take harren/acorn/maiden. Greyjoy is more useful since he can actually harrass riverrun, but both are good I suppose. Plus you can get tyrion/bronn if you get arryn. Also though its basically common knowledge, get Varys to spy out like, every building in the south, to monitor activity.
Jtaylor really needs to give this map to someone else. If he's not going to ever update it, and he doesn't want to, at least give it to someone else who will.
I loled at Palamani and definitely laugh at all lotr players who say that Song/CoK takes less skill than lotr games. I have 3 reasons to say that it is the other way around as in lotr takes less skill than Song:
-In lotr games all you have to do is exploit bugs and find ways to snipe spawns to win (I'm aware that every once and a while a single house in Song will get obliterated but thats ok since you don't spawn from it and only get 5 population).
-In lotr games you can have a "recall" when you get careless or are chasing something or sniping something. In real life as in Song, you can't dive after an impossible objective and then "recall" yourself to prevent utter destruction of your heros. Converting KL spawn then being able to blink out of KL while ignoring all the turrets? That is what "recall" is. Don't worry if you chase a badly wounded LittleFinger into a full-up Eyrie, you can just magic yourself out.
-The diplo factor is finally the hardest part. The fact that you have to keep your eyes and head constantly scanning to see who will bs you adds excitement and uncertainty versus knowing: "oh yeah, It's Gondor, Rohan and Elves versus Mordor, Isengard and Moria...again..."
Those are my 3 reasons why Song is harder than Lotr; bugs and spawn sniping, magic run aways and lack of excitement and uncertainty.
I'm going to look for JT to see if I can get the map. I don't know how to edit crap but I'll give it a shot.
On the other hand, I do have some of the basic Song and CoK maps from a year+ ago that I could try editing and uploading. They're pretty brutal though lol.
A Lannister Guide eh?
Obleron's Lannister guide to perhaps a lucky Lannister win:
Early Game:
-I unite my hero ball by bringing everyone from KL to the west. I proceed to give the val dagger to Hound and put Jamie's armor on Tywin (Jamie respawns and Tywin doesn't plus Tywin's aura makes him worth keeping around).
-I upgrade Casterly Rock and Golden Tooth because I crank out medics at Lannisport until I have 1 for every hero and KG (12 medics total).
-Use Varys to scout out as much of Tully as possible; maidenpool, the keep north of maiden, bloody gate, harrehal, acorn hall and all the houses around there. If Varys lives through all that I go south and do bitterbridge, nightsong, keep north of black haven, blackhaven, keep and house near dorne, tyrell house east of highgarden. After that I dunno, twins and RR I guess. Note if you lose Varys or kill him yourself no one else gets him if they take KL.
-I have my medics and some spawns saved up. Now I head for acorn and take that. Hold it until I'm ready and push harrenhall and maidenpool.
Mid Game:
-I have 1 of 3 courses of action after the above is accomplished. Eradicate Tully, head south or split your hero ball and hold the trident while pushing south. Door #1: If you allied Arryn or Greyjoy then eradicating Tully is a great option. After Tully is snuffed out, I cede all Tully land north of trident and harrenhall to my ally. They can hold Stark that way by themselves while I head south. If you choose to head south without eliminating Tully then prepare for some pesky raids. Door #2: Heading south full steam is great after doing the early game stuff especially if you allied Tyrell. I would typically shatter renly and take all his stuff that isn't protected by Storms End. I would then support Tyrell's conquest of Martell while fending off Renly. After Martell goes then give Tyrell the job of eating leftovers of Renly and head back north. Door #3: You accomplished your early game goals and allied Arryn or Greyjoy but they don't quite live up to your expectations and you hear Martell going "Renly and Tyrell are %%%*#*@!## meee! HELP anybody!" You must split your heros and head south then (the enemy of my enemy is Martell). I typically leave my KG, Jamie, Hound up north to defend Trident and take Tywin, Mountain, Joffery, Cersei down south. This leaves you the ability to gather in either direction.
Late Game:
-Center and/or South is no longer a factor. Arryn took Tully and landed on DragonStone and took Stannis OR Tyrell took all of south with your help and is now taking Greyjoy or Stannis OR Greyjoy took Tully and then took Stark or headed south to help you. Now you wait for Others to work their way down to you past Moat. As Lannister I try to grab as much land with my ally until Others get to Moat then I prepare for the slaughter (can't have slaughter without laughter).
!@#$ that just seems to happen:
-You get no allies>>Take harrehal, maidenpool and accorn hall. Be conservative with your heros. Pray for Wildings/Others. Hold onto your butt.
-Your ally is totally incapable>>Unally him/her and get a new one. If you're cheesy and "loyal" then refer to "you get no allies" above.
-You lose Tywin, Sandor and Gregor in the first 20 minutes>>Buy faceless and focus on holding your own. Keep your remaining heros alive.
Things to exploit:
-Wilds/Others break through NW>>Jump on Tully with Arryn or Greyjoy. Head south with all possible speed with your ally. Stark has to go North and you can usually rally Tyrell or Martell to your cause when they see Stark QQ. If you allied Tyrell then split your heros to hold Trident while Stark/Arryn is/are undoubtably fighting wilds/others.
-Tyrell QQs early>>Take the toss nexus place (Florent household seat in Lore) and Oldtown.
-Stark QQs early>>ally Tyrell and take Tully with the "hold the Trident" mindset.

I tried to keep this is short as possible and didn't want to go into too many specifics. Hope it helps. My personal preference is to ally Arryn, then Tyrell, then Greyjoy but it also depends on what player is who.
Does anyone else think Stannis needs a 3rd spawn?
Or at least a small buff?
I loled at Palamani and definitely laugh at all lotr players who say that Song/CoK takes less skill than lotr games. I have 3 reasons to say that it is the other way around as in lotr takes less skill than Song:

I was taking a guess at what other people thought. Personally, I have no particular problem with the map, but the diplomacy aspect (negotiation, alliances, and especially the backstabbing) is not for me.

-In lotr games all you have to do is exploit bugs and find ways to snipe spawns to win (I'm aware that every once and a while a single house in Song will get obliterated but thats ok since you don't spawn from it and only get 5 population).

What bugs? By now, the majority of the maps don't have any real bugs. The spawn sniping is a part of the game in most cases, but there are maps that effectively rule it out. Don't forget that a substantial chunk of nearly every map involves pushing down bases.

-In lotr games you can have a "recall" when you get careless or are chasing something or sniping something. In real life as in Song, you can't dive after an impossible objective and then "recall" yourself to prevent utter destruction of your heros. Converting KL spawn then being able to blink out of KL while ignoring all the turrets? That is what "recall" is. Don't worry if you chase a badly wounded LittleFinger into a full-up Eyrie, you can just magic yourself out.

For one, the recall is a key mechanic in most of these maps. In that sort of scenario, it would essentially be an infiltration.
Two, that point about King's Landing would not work, because this is not a base-sniping map. In a map designed to seriously accomodate base sniping, there would be air transports, stronger heroes, and much weaker bases (King's Landing has 55,000 hitpoints, which is about six times too high for a reasonable shot at sniping it).
Also, this is not meant to be a perfect match for reality. If it was, heroes would only be about as strong as Great Lords, if not weaker, and bases would probably be even harder to capture.
Three, the Littlefinger point only applies to a degree. Picture it as the equivalent of getting in one last shot an instant before he slips through the gate of the fortress or whatever before you rush back to your own lines.

-The diplo factor is finally the hardest part. The fact that you have to keep your eyes and head constantly scanning to see who will bs you adds excitement and uncertainty versus knowing: "oh yeah, It's Gondor, Rohan and Elves versus Mordor, Isengard and Moria...again..."

LotR-style maps are not diplomacy maps. The closest you can come to diplomacy in one of these is to have a map with three or four teams (which, admittedly, is very few of the maps), where two teams agree to beat up on a third (presumably, the third team just crushed the fourth or some such to provoke this alliance). This is actually a very, very tense scenario. That kind of alliance in a map with three or four locked teams is basically like Stannis and Lannister allying each other, or Stannis and Renly. It just really doesn't work out in the end, and sooner or later one will go for the other's throat. In this instance, you have to be able to judge when it will happen.
Still, you are correct for the most part about this point. Not everybody likes the diplomacy aspect, however. I prefer to have clear-cut teams, and to know who my enemy is. As such, I am a huge target for a backstab in A Song of Ice and Fire (one reason why I rarely play it as anything besides the Night's Watch).
Then it seems that lotr and song are happily suited to each type of player. Had a question about Helms Deep. Is it possible to remove the "bodyguards?" I recently played a game for fun and the bodyguards dont die. They just kind of stand where they were brought down to 1 life point and don't do anything.
This is hazardous because if an evil player doesn't know they can inadvertantly make a choke. If good does know they can put their goliaths on "hold P" and put them in a choke (drain, main gate, etc). Thus blocking the path for the rest of the game.

Stannis doesn't need a buff or another spawn. He has 110 supply because he has such small resources and the Stannis ball is one of the best balls in the game if you can micro him properly. Watch Leonardo play Stannis sometime and you'll see.

That said. I have had zero luck getting a hold of JTaylor and am giving up on that avenue. If anyone wants the old copies of "Clash of Kings" that I have then you can feel free to work with them. Let me know.
Well one could argue, that if you dont get allied early on, happens, sometimes areound the 20 min mark, ur heroes will still be like lvl 2, which if pretty bad.
02/04/2013 02:21 PMPosted by Ganon
Well one could argue, that if you dont get allied early on, happens, sometimes areound the 20 min mark, ur heroes will still be like lvl 2, which if pretty bad.


I'm gonna have to say that unless you're a bad player (I don't mean this as a insult). This most likely won't happen. For example holding bronzegate choke can level up your heros against renly, since renly usually goes to grab it back 80% of the time. And also the crownlands is easy to level up. After clearing up duskendale defenses and taking it over. you can stand behind it as kind of a natural choke defense and level up a bit.
Then it seems that lotr and song are happily suited to each type of player. Had a question about Helms Deep. Is it possible to remove the "bodyguards?" I recently played a game for fun and the bodyguards dont die. They just kind of stand where they were brought down to 1 life point and don't do anything.This is hazardous because if an evil player doesn't know they can inadvertantly make a choke. If good does know they can put their goliaths on "hold P" and put them in a choke (drain, main gate, etc). Thus blocking the path for the rest of the game.

Sorry, but this is blatantly wrong. When a Bodyguard dies, it has no collision until it revives. What this means in practical terms is that it does not block anything when it's that bright red tint indicative of incapacitation. I wasn't oblivious to that problem when I added that mechanic in the first place.
Also, they now get teleported to the back lines upon death, to avoid two very different issues: that of the Bodyguards reviving when a weakened hero is passing by, and that of them being instantly knocked out over and over, unable to retreat.

My apologies for dragging the thread a bit off-topic.
02/03/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Ganon
Does anyone else think Stannis needs a 3rd spawn?

I played Stannis yesterday, and he is simply not a fun house to play. Compared to Lannister and Renly, he has a distinct disadvantage in army size, with only two spawn locations, and that is only made up for by his heroes. Transports in this game are simply terrible and clunky, and Stannis is entirely reliant on using them. Davos harass can easily be shut down by putting spies in the right locations, and you simply cannot take land from a vigilant Renly/Lannister/Stark. You are entirely too reliant on allies, and typically few people ally Stannis.

So yes, Stannis definitely needs some more spawns or stronger units.
Yeah, I Stannis and Wildlings are the only houses I don't really enjoy. They both don't have enough room >.<

Also, has anyone played JTaylor's map Fellowship of the Ring? It's similar to War of the Ring, but updated with a couple more factions and without the hero stack debuff. Good stuff!
02/11/2013 11:54 AMPosted by Azthot
Does anyone else think Stannis needs a 3rd spawn?
I played Stannis yesterday, and he is simply not a fun house to play. Compared to Lannister and Renly, he has a distinct disadvantage in army size, with only two spawn locations, and that is only made up for by his heroes. Transports in this game are simply terrible and clunky, and Stannis is entirely reliant on using them. Davos harass can easily be shut down by putting spies in the right locations, and you simply cannot take land from a vigilant Renly/Lannister/Stark. You are entirely too reliant on allies, and typically few people ally Stannis.

So yes, Stannis definitely needs some more spawns or stronger units.


You need to use Robes of Rhllor on Davos more often
02/11/2013 11:54 AMPosted by Azthot
Does anyone else think Stannis needs a 3rd spawn?

I played Stannis yesterday, and he is simply not a fun house to play. Compared to Lannister and Renly, he has a distinct disadvantage in army size, with only two spawn locations, and that is only made up for by his heroes. Transports in this game are simply terrible and clunky, and Stannis is entirely reliant on using them. Davos harass can easily be shut down by putting spies in the right locations, and you simply cannot take land from a vigilant Renly/Lannister/Stark. You are entirely too reliant on allies, and typically few people ally Stannis.

So yes, Stannis definitely needs some more spawns or stronger units.


You should play against my Stannis.
Just so everyone knows, the new patch removed the top half of the unit card in the bottom right corner. All of the functionality (attack, hold position, etc) is still available if you use the hotkeys. The "gather army" that is missing can be easily fixed by using the new "select army" key, F2. The only functionality difference is that it doesn't grab squires (Probes) and does grab observers. This is obviously horrible and I'm sure there will be a patch fix within 2 weeks.

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