[Showcase] Special Forces Elite 4 (Thread 1)

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1/ hot key's are faulty but you can work around this in hotkeys settings for your personal use
- Go into hotkeys in F10
- find you hero/unit in list (terran, terran story, protoss, protoss story)
- Come back to forum and rage when you don't find it(for a few starting heroes)
- Think what the base unit for that hero is and bring that unit up in hotkeys
- It will have 2 different unit panes to hot key generally the left one is the starting hero pane and can be hotkeyed to your preference

2/ The every other X wave better units are no longer in game (green roach with crazy armor/health 1 from initial every 2nd wave 1st stage and 3 from every 2nd on 2nd stage roach warrens). Hybrid ones most noticable extremely easy to farm them now without big red and mini Maar(don't rememeber actual names off hand) and they are missing from the triggered hybrid waves too.

@TheTitan - Nuke from anythign other than odin imo would dumb down screwing up and shouldn't be considered unless it's done as ghost only 1-2 min shared CD on ghost, non auto casting so it's not an A move essentially and 1/2 strength or even 1/3 of Odins. Drakken laser drill is a no as in who would control it, where would it go, why do we need it. Rip field generator -see Drakken laser drill essentially and why would you want the one thing that would lag the game by itself more than any other unit.

@TheTitan - kept separate big issue.
On keeping unit stats high and numbers low that's a player based problem not map based imo, as in current rendition with 4 players(so I get enough income) I have made a D set up that is self healing (SCV's SV's and medivac's totalling 20 supplies) has 6 auto turrets, 3 perdition turrets(1 is only there to block access from zerg during attack) 4 AA turrets and 1 bunker, 3 psi disruptors and 3 healing towers, All offencive structures hero'd forward AA turret full buffs, bunker full buffs, 2 key perds full buffs all others buffed only to ace, easily makable in 4 player with income, leaves 20 supplies for a mobile force, has 0 need for help or assistance, with good teammates on Offensive I put mauraders in bunker. I am 3 for 3 with this layout as I put it together killing 2 of 3 levithan (one down before getting to base good group), 3 of 3 stank(usually dead before his buddies make the base), final kerrigans(I lose all my SCV's but they are 4k to replace) and 2 of 2 ragnarok (with no strutural loses over maybe 1 AA turret) and tanks 1 of 1 hell's gate (with all spawn and some teammate help) it can have 3 closest random nydus spots killed itself late game as AAturrets nuke the worms. This is me who generally anytime you look at my match history has almost 50 of 50 shown all this map prob well over 1000 matches played in last 1-1.5 years I have a thourough knowledge of this map. So new people would not know to make this as to how it is perfectly placed and it's strategic nuances. That said in 5 player it's iffy to set up in time in 6 I can't get the key pieces buffed in time usually.

TLDR this wall of spam we need to educate newer players why its a special forces map not a mass forces map.

@Jason -(My opinions) no buffs are needed on player side at all atm other than maybe a tank structure for protoss(mini ripfield wold be awesome if you can minimise lag from it's aura graphic). Hotkey fixes major QoL issue for non intuitive players to customising hotkey system. I do see abilities hotkeyed and unusable as that hotkey or alot not keyed at all.

Suggestions for going forward @Jason
  • What is the possibility of removing orbital healing graphic on unit(seems lag inducing and with buff top of list you always know if it's about fine tuneing unit placement imo).
  • If you're truly going to balance both races HT needs to be transportable.
  • More 1 of heros terran side has 3 to protoss 5.
  • Siege Tank ace buff (keep it more on longevity over more dps as already one of highest effective dps units.
  • Ace buffs for festor's units
  • 4 supply infantry for terran similar to how Dark Templar takes 4 supply as buffng a dark templar is of greater benefit to the player relative to buffing a marine/ghost. Suggestions for this are spectre and up it's damage ~33%, mineral cost(would be 8k same as DT) and health by ~33% OR add a marine unit uses marine buffs, graphically bigger to maybe marauder size, takes 2 bunker spots to not make that unbalanced, only recieves ~75-90% increase to damage as outright doubling would make it catagorically better than marines essentially making it always better focus firing as every target would effectively have 2 marines on it, 2X health and +1 armor
  • what are the odd of any shielded terran unit keeping up the shield when at 0 so it can refill for it's duration but refills on recast AND removing shield regen delay for all terran units so it is still relevant late game
  • I agree with Ash regarding the difficulty of the game, no need for any additions unless difficulty settings are implemented. Difficulty needs to be increased, especially for veterans who knows the ins and outs. In this game, it's not the enemy that kills you, it's your teammates and their wreckless and often non-existent strategies. I don't know how many times I'm on a different part of map just to check back at the CC and see the Overmaster or Roach Queen ravaging the place.

    The final stand if it were to come to that is the best part. Now with the non-repeating buffs, player units become very powerful to the point a small army can withstand the final Kerrigans, Hell Gate worm and Ragnarok without them getting close to the base. The best part is when Ragnarok drops a nuke out and wipes out a cluster of your army because they're bunched together, then the panic sets in.
    08/19/2012 06:47 PMPosted by Choo
    The final stand if it were to come to that is the best part. Now with the non-repeating buffs, player units become very powerful to the point a small army can withstand the final Kerrigans, Hell Gate worm and Ragnarok without them getting close to the base. The best part is when Ragnarok drops a nuke out and wipes out a cluster of your army because they're bunched together, then the panic sets in.

    Moments like these are the reason I play this map :)
    As much as I love the auto-turret, it probably should be nerfed a bit. You can beat the game with 8 (maybe even 6) well positioned auto turrets that are fully upgraded/buffed/leveled. Just put a few psi disruptors for total coverage and I have no problems holding any of the bosses even without any other units and them heading towards the command center. That's why I wouldn't mind an insane difficulty with Ragnarok AND Hell's Worm. Though at its current difficulty, I'd just need Nova to take out the worm, while the auto-turrets kill everything else. Since range makes it kinda unique, maybe lower damage a bit and/or rate of fire.
    i've experiencing extreme lags this past 2 days for no reason. I have only like 14 auto turret and 5 air turret and the game lags like crazy at the end game, like 1 frame per 10 seconds.
    Are you playing this solo?
    you guys make the final boss sound so easy, any help?
    If you want to beat it solo, there are many ways to do this. One way is to get Nova and buff her. Then put her on the Kerrigan spawn, she can take out the Hell's Worm within a minute for sure. Have all your units defend until then. Alternatively, for both endings, you can have all your units right at the spawn point. If you have all your units there, there is no reason why you can't kill them all out without them even leaving that spot. The trick there is to kill them before they spawn too many units. Have some towers at your base to defend against strays and other random Brutalisks or Nydus Worms.
    bugs found, when i click on the command center, and in the bottom middle of the screen, its status suppose to come out, but it only flashes and gone blank.

    And the infested zombies from festor are missing the attacking animation.
    Hey Jason, great job so far! I tried to read most of the thread but I got rather "skimmy" towards the end. Two things that'd be neat and shouldn't be too difficult:

    1. When you kick out the "This unit already has all 16 buffs!" message, why not refund the player the 10k he just spent?

    2. The unlockable heroes currently start out unlocked. This is fine, as fenrir is really the only game changer, but it kind of sucks when we still get the "you found two roach eggs!" message when they're already unlocked.

    #1 is more important to me, and I'm sure plenty of others have already commented on #2. Thanks for your hard work!
    1. b/c he's evil and wants you to lose 10k each time :P

    2. already mentioned, I think Lanz was thinking of changing it since this is also in the last version
    [Notification]: Sorry I've been away and not updated the game recently (as quickly as I had projected) but Life blindsided me and I've been unable to do much. Among other things that have gone on I got a nasty cold... I've seriously not gotten sick in years so I'm being a big baby about it. I will be returning to work on the map when I can but I felt I should at least try to respond to everyone who has posted since I last did. I am going to update my first post for this thread like Wings suggested to show everyone where I am though.

    @Wings - The feedback you provided me on the hotkeys what exactly what I was hoping would be reported and should be an easy fix. As far as difficulty I like Ash's idea which would be to beef the game in general for now. Thank you again Wings.

    @Ash - This feedback is appreciated as it's along the lines of what I was thinking to make the game a bit tougher. I think it's going to come down to beefing the game in general and then adding in an actual difficulty selection system. Thank you Ash.

    @TheTitan - 1. This is a good idea but the income display from a kill is tied more deeply into the game then I'll explain here. Making any changes to that is not something I would have any plans on doing, at least not for a long time. 2. Adding a non-hero mothership would be possible as well but I'm afraid at this time it could cause more player lag than necessary. 3. The idea of being able to have any kind of nuke outside of the Odin's just does not sit well with me either. It just sounds like it would be a black and white ability (either overpowered or underpowered). 4. The Drakken Laser Drill is a nice idea but seems way too out of place for this project. 5. The Rip Field Generator kind of falls into the same category as the Drakken Laser Drill. 6. I can't really do anything about "wooden PCs" and their inability to handle things. Don't get me wrong though, I am an older gamer and can understand the pains of lag which can be caused in various ways. It's just that this map was not designed to be easy on the player in any way shape or form. 7. The auto-cast Nuke from the Ragnarok is essentially like his key feature, removing that would defeat the point of him being a boss. 8. Thank you for your support and ideas.

    @Wings (again) - Rip Field Generator is the thing from a campaign mission and would cause ungodly lag if I implemented a copy of that one. I pretty much agree with the rest of your post there but I won't be implementing that nuke idea from TheTitan. Thank you for checking out his information though.

    @Ash (again) - Thank you for your response as yet again you've summed up my feelings into words.

    @Beseige - 1. I know I can tell the players to work around the hotkey but but thanks to Wings feedback I know what I need to do to fix it. It will be easy. 2. I am aware of all units missing from attack waves. The units are still there I just didn't put them back in the triggers yet.
    I do plan on putting in at least one more protoss structure for tanking or some sort. Already responded about the hotkey thing. I do plan on removing the healing model displayed from Healing Towers as it is lag inducing a great deal of players. The HT really should be transportable so I agree with that for sure. Took me a second to understand what you meant but I feel the races should be equal unit and hero count wise. Once again, took me a second to understand what you meant but I'm not sure what I'll do for it yet. Ace buffs for the Festor's unit will be implemented at some point. I understand your suggestion about a higher class Terran unit and will think about that. Shields are terran units is something I will need to look into. I've always felt the shields on terrans were kind of out of place for this map. Thank you for your post.

    @Choo & @Ash - I agree with your response and thank you for your input.

    @Wings (again again) - The auto-turrets do need to be nerfed in my opinion as well. My reasoning for this is a single shrike bunker takes up six spots and is not six times more powerful than an auto-turret. A filled bunker comes closer to the power of six auto-turrets but the range difference is just silly at that point. I will be looking at this so thank you for the post.

    @GianBaby - Hmm, I'm not sure what to respond to you with. I plan on implementing fixes to reduce lag overall so maybe when I do thta your issue will vanish.

    @AlphaOmega - I won't give away any of my secret battle plans!

    @GiantBaby (again) - Thank you for the report.

    @Razorphillia - 1. Yup, as Wings mentioned below you, I have a bit of evil in my heart and will be keeping it that way. 2. I will be working on the unlockable hero thing shortly.

    [Signature]: Find players who are players you can play with and play your way to victory!
    Can you make a TLDR of your posts/changes you have done?
    Thx on the 1st page summary will help people coming to thread for first time.

    Again from the community we really appreciate your hard work on this.

    Main thing to remember is you can't please everyone all the time don't try and implement everything if it even might be a bad idea (I know you know but making sure it's prevelant in the minds of those with unreasonable request's). To this end regarding my previous post I don't expect a 4 supply terran infantry soon or if ever, but just making a point of refence as also with even fully buffed marines are exceptionally squishie vs a zealot partially due to nature of melee vs range which is a moot point at the speed alot moves late game so they could use a little survivability love or dps help(tie more damage to ace or reduced CD on special would probably suffice if it seems needed)

    Ran into wings in game and was just silly getting 2 people that know map that well together able to abuse all weakness' on the other side. The biggest thing we thought about you already know and that's auto turrets, couple thoughts here
  • I do like the range that is given so I hope that isn't altered during balancing them
  • They become way to durable with ace not thinking they should be true glass cannons but tone down survivability given from ace
  • Damage from ace is very reasonable with how armor works late game but refire bonus is what puts them over the top possible dropping to 25% or 50% increase over 100% currently. As it stand not including leveling them up and other buffs they deal 600%(200% increase to damage and 100% improved refire = 6X effect) of original damage the moment they get ace modified further by the ace buff itself
  • Other issue we discussed you do know about is how overpowered roaches are early game, balanced they are mid and semi useless late game. Associating them to festor as you mention would solve the late game issue but leave them too strong early on. I put forward the idea of taking their 50% mitigation and splitting it into 2 abilities similar to the firebat still keeping total the same with ace but making them a little more balanced early game.
    Just a note, the search function seems to work fine without spaces. So searching for: specialforceelite4 will always just return this map alone.

    You have some sort of typo on #30: Review bugged ace ability (I think from ace). Did you mean the wraith? Just while I'm at it there is a typo in #3 as well lol. As for #36, is it possible to have all toss units transportable? I know the probe and high templar are not able to be picked up with the medivac, not sure if it's able ot be transported with the Dominator or other overlord unit with transport or if any other protoss units can be transported. Also, it would be helpful to list which units need to be fixed, like in #3, specific units that I can think of are ghost and Raynor, but I'm most likely missing a few. You may know a bunch more but in case you missed anything, I'm sure it would make identifying things easier when you have many more sets of eyes from the community.

    Another interesting character in this map is Mr. Moo (or was it Mr. Cow) lol. He needs to be a little stronger and come out more often. I think more enemies should be levelable. I thought at one point the infestors were levelable, but I can't recall now if they still are. This would definitely help with the player controlled Infested General as well.

    One last change I would like to see (for now), is that the non-offensive units (psi disruptor, healing tower, observer, etc.) be upgraded along with the rest of the units since late game they tend to get owned too easily.

    Get better soon :)
    @Machschau - Check my first post on page one and see if that's what you're looking for.

    @Beseige - I reworked the Auto-Turret based off the feedback you gave me which was similar to what I had in mind. I also plan on handling the Fluffy units (roaches) in a fashion similar to what you've posted as well. Thank you as always for your feedback and support.

    @Wings - I updated the first post for the best search method for the map; wicked crazy how the search works so well without spaces. Normally I proofread my posts before I submit them on here as well but I didn't with that edit so that's probably why I had so many typos and half thoughts. I've totally reworked my first post edits now that I'm feeling better and I proofread it this time. Also, it is Mr. Cow and he is a secret unit that I plan on doing something more with. What I plan on doing with him does not call for increasing his spawn rate though (it's... a secret). As far as the last thing you mentioned I'll take a look into that. I've noticed some kind of disconnect between the way many combat structures progress versus the non-combat structures and I intend on fixing that. Thanks you as well as always.

    [Update]: I just wanted to post that I finally, especially since I feel better, got a chance to work on the map a little today. I didn't get all the stuff done that I wanted but got enough done that I probably could have published but I'll handle it soon enough.

    Here is a copy of the change log I've got for this 1.3 update (so far):
    Increased difficulty of Roach Queen slightly
    Re-enabled the periodic spawning of certain units
    Re-created the timed attack I accidentally deleted (around 16 minutes)
    Fixed most portraits that spoke via telepathy (their mouths move now)
    Changed the -colors trigger command to only display for the Triggering Player
    Nerfed Hyper Security System (Ace Auto-Turret Buff)
    Fixed New Generation Bunker (Ace Bunker Buff)
    Improved upon Admin Recognition System (Shakespeare anybody?)
    Reworked more data to improve various things

    [Signature]: Find players who are players you can play with and play your way to victory!
    Not as thought out as I generally am but few thoughts

    Ace buff for Siege Tanks - they are generally sitting ducks to put it mildly when used for anything but Defence(including a forward post defending behind units) to this end I thought what if they got as an ace buff the one thing that makes them semi useful, When in SIEGE MODE ONLY they give off 'arclite static' or some such aura that slows movement and attack speed of all non mechanical enemy units(mental image of insultated rain boots for allied infantry is a hilarious mental picture) range 9-10 and to give basis for this buff damage 20% (fully buffed a few other day not as OP as I thought their damage would get without an ace buff) as top end infantry hit harder per time(less range more mobility) than they do only thing they have going for them at all in this scenario is range and splash and alot of the splash is negated by the size of mobs as nothing is close enough to where it hits to get the splash late game. and reasonable survivability buffs would be nice to just avoid raw damage mitigation go with armor and health.

    Also just for laughs I do have to mention how much fun buffed SCV's are I fully buffed 6 with fenrir autofollowing him and was extremely amusing to see the SCV's tank all the spawn out of the 2nd stage greater spire while fenrir dpsed em down. Cost effective? not even close. Worth it? OH SO MUCH.
    Definitely looking forward to testing out the latest (yay non-beta) version... maybe in a few weeks though lol. I'm pretty busy at work and have an exam followed by another big project. I'll still check the forums though, so hope to hear of your updates!
    Ace buff for Siege Tanks
    Nah. Auras become expensive in terms of game resources very quickly.

    A simple ace buff should:
    - increase splash radius
    - reduce friendly fire
    - remove minimum range
    I'm not sure if people have informed of this but Raynor and A.R.E.S models tend to get bug out and including the Ghost when getting ace or promote to hero it get stuck on penetrator attack actor not sure how to say it. Keep up the good work. Loving the game alot.

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