Testing Balance Changes

General Discussion
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what zergs will have to do (and get used to) if the creep nerf is actually patched in, is that overlords will have to drop creep above or below the ramp they are trying to spread creep on with tumors. then either a queen will have to drop a new one up or down there, or the tumor will be able to spread without wasting another one too close by.

this is already required on some maps.. if the range is nerfed then it will become a necessity.
Can;t find the map either. But wait? raven can't use seeker missile when fungaled?????????????????????????????????????????
great news, this is the first time in recent SC2 history that blizz have looked carefully at the game and changed something subtly, just to nudge the balance a little without completely screwing it up and overnerfing/buffing (eg 3>5 rather than 3>4 for queen range)

you're still not forgiven blizzard but it seems you're at least learning from your mistakes. well done.
Well, I'm slightly interested in the Creep change...

I barely use raven anyway though D: APM not high enough for them -_-
While movement speed will help Raven micro, it's still severely lacking.
An increase in it's casting range for it's spells are needed to help it become a viable caster.

During an engagement, there's already a variety of units that Terrans already have to Micro.
Marines need to be split, Tanks need to target fire. Ghosts need to EMP, Vikings have to be spread out.
The AOE threats from Zerg are numerous and it requires a lot of micro to mitigate.

Reading through this thread, there's this odd assumption that Terrans are able to Micro 4 Separate types of units + Ravens simultaneously. Even towards the end game, Terran still needs to micro these units to be effective with them.

There's 4 major issues with Ravens.
1. Energy Cost of Spells
2. Casting Range
3. Resource Cost
4. Building Time

For the amount of resources, tech and time it requires to get a Raven, it's sub-par.
Compare it with the other 2 casters. HT's and Infestors.
One can be Warped-in, the other spawns from a Hatchery in as numerous amounts as Resources/Larva limits.

You'd think with the Time/Resources it takes to get a Raven, they'd be a viable caster. (150/100 + 50/25 for a Starport-Tech-Lab). Not to mention all the upgrades 150/150 for SM, 150/150 for Energy upgrade. But then they're also micro-intensive.

You can keep the cost of the unit high, but at the very least increase the ease of the unit. There's already a plethora of units that Terrans need to micro already.

I have suggested it already.
1. Increase the Casting Range of Ravens to 7. It's still severely out-ranged by Infestor FG, and HT Feedback. But it makes it a bit easier to cast.

2. Lower the cost of Seeker Missile to 100 and implement a 30-50 second cool-down. It'll prevent SM spam and ensure there's only 1 cast per Raven in a battle with the cooldown. At full energy, it can at least cast a 2nd spell so it doesn't become a 100/200cost Detector.
08/08/2012 01:37 PMPosted by hunts
Raven REALLY doesn't need buffs, you really have no clue just how good ravens actually are. 1 or 2 PDDs and your vikins will win the air battle even if its 5 vikings vs 20 corruptors, unless you stack every single viking into fungal. HSM is devastating vs zerg when actually used. BLs can not spread or run fast enough from it, infestors off creep can't outrun it either. The creep spread change will be devastating to zergs outside of the absolute top pro level of skill because creep is so important to surviving attacks. Honestly TvZ was heavily in terrans favor for almost 2 years and all we got was "wait and see" now that it has been in zergs favor for 1 month, and is now actually balanced (in terrans favor again in korea) you want to nerf zerg and buff terran, what a joke.


you said it right there , took all the words out of my post.
Ghost should be 150 Minerals 150 Gas, I dont see why this hasnt been changed yet, the ghost is so mineral heavy which cuts into other bio unit production

They did change it, from 150/150 to 200/100. How can you say that's not a buff? I wish Infestors could cost 150/100.
I agree that the spells the Raven have need to be buffed slightly for them to be useful. The free units that the Zerg spit out are useful, i don't see why the Raven's turrets shouldn't be as good as infested Terrans. That and reduce the Seeker Missile's energy cost by a bit and i think Ravens would be used more often without being too powerful.
I like the approach (make lategame viable), but it's too subtle. If you want to change the game by promoting ravens, you'll have to buff the spells. Perhaps do something like decrease the energy cost for Seeker Missile.
I think the seeker missile range could be increased and possibly reduce the raven cost
So we're talking here about a 100/200 unit that you'll probably not make tons of. Mainly because you won't have the resources to do so. And if you do, you probably can just make more units to win the game. Remove overlord speed buff and keep the creep buff. Leave ravens as useless as they are.
I am beyond excited that Blizzard has decided to test a Practicality buff to the Raven. In this thread, I and others from the community pushed several possibilities to make the Raven more functional in game.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6008451267 (see suggestion #2)

There were other threads as well, about both creep spread and the role of Ravens. I commend and thank those at Blizzard who have been brainstorming along with the community on how to improve the design of this wonderful game. Thank you very much!

I will participate in the testing as much as I can.
Great. I just feel like blizzard is being forced to make some kind of changes. Like, they're only doing this cuz they have to
After testing,

I found maybe the creep range should be 9.

8 may be an over-nerf.
After testing,

I found maybe the creep range should be 9.

8 may be an over-nerf.


I agree, the creep needs to be able to spread a little further as to get down the ramp.

What happens if they changed the creep spread radius and build range to 9 but kept the vision at 8?
Much needed buff for a unit that is underused.
I like these changes, seem to address the TvZ issue without affecting other matchups much.
It will be easier to fly a raven away from mutas and protect with marines until you can get either a PDD or HSM out. More micro battles is always a good thing.
The creep tumor range could help quite a bit, but with Zergs putting down 3+ tumors at once, I'm still not too sure. If this doesn't seem to have much of an effect, maybe increase the tumor cooldown from 15 to 18 seconds or something as well. (While still keeping the original tumor build time 15 seconds.)
After testing,

I found maybe the creep range should be 9.

8 may be an over-nerf.


I agree, the creep needs to be able to spread a little further as to get down the ramp.

What happens if they changed the creep spread radius and build range to 9 but kept the vision at 8?


Then you won't be able to spread to the range 9 cuz you don't have the vision


I agree, the creep needs to be able to spread a little further as to get down the ramp.

What happens if they changed the creep spread radius and build range to 9 but kept the vision at 8?


Then you won't be able to spread to the range 9 cuz you don't have the vision


Lings/Drones/Queens for the extra vision. What it would do is fix the creep ramp problem while keeping the higher limitations to self-propagation of creep.

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