Testing Balance Changes

General Discussion
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08/08/2012 04:26 PMPosted by Robotix
If Blizzard starts trying to buff the Raven's abilities, then they are going to become OP. :\


Not necessarily. If they take it very slowly like they're currently doing with this first round of changes, they may be able to formulate a good change.
08/08/2012 04:28 PMPosted by NeSNoSu
I think the queen's range should be reduced by 1 in addition to the changes listed herein; however, I also believe that the Infestor should be looked at; as it stands now, the Infestor is the most powerful caster in the game, is the most universal caster, and the most difficult caster to deal with -- it counters everything; in comparison, the ghost is completely useless.
I think that 4 is the sweet spot for the Queen.
good changes
The creep change isn't necessary. Protoss don't have ANY of the creep problems terrans do. why? They make obs. I think the raven buff is fine, I don't think it needed one, but now that there is one people will flock to them like flies on !@#$ so we can actually see some builds around them and some mechanics developed to use them. But once terrans start building ravens, they won't be having as many creep problems.
08/08/2012 04:28 PMPosted by NeSNoSu
I think the queen's range should be reduced by 1 in addition to the changes listed herein; however, I also believe that the Infestor should be looked at; as it stands now, the Infestor is the most powerful caster in the game, is the most universal caster, and the most difficult caster to deal with -- it counters everything; in comparison, the ghost is completely useless.


I hate posting cliches but....
Different units are different. The Terran does not need an infestor. Different units are very different, and have different uses within other armies.
08/08/2012 04:29 PMPosted by Metherlance
If Blizzard starts trying to buff the Raven's abilities, then they are going to become OP. :\


Not necessarily. If they take it very slowly like they're currently doing with this first round of changes, they may be able to formulate a good change.


The thing is, Ravens are already a good unit. They just take forever to get and are difficult to use.
long time t, 2nd season as p...so i guess im bias
a few changes i'd love to see are:
-giving ghost back their sniping power (please)
-cheaper minerals for ravens.
I am beyond excited that Blizzard has decided to test a Practicality buff to the Raven. In this thread, I and others from the community pushed several possibilities to make the Raven more functional in game.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6008451267 (see suggestion #2)

There were other threads as well, about both creep spread and the role of Ravens. I commend and thank those at Blizzard who have been brainstorming along with the community on how to improve the design of this wonderful game. Thank you very much!

I will participate in the testing as much as I can.


YAY! Now to reinstall SC2; couldn't agree with you more Doncroft. Now to ask myself this: why did I uninstall SC2 again!?
seems fair, you buffed our queens and they are stronger, its a fact.
Now, since we favor building more queens than before a debuff
to creep tumors seems fair.

zero complaints here.

/Edit Now mind you, I expect blizz to also consider the raven and potentially
modify its stats... no evidence yet to suggest this but we shall see.
I honestly think ravens could use a boost, though i don't know how.
Speed might be a perfect buff. Mind you, expense and nature of raven
is what is prohibitive... one might consider alternately to reduce its expense
or increase its rate of production /edit
I haven't tried it out yet, but I still think the raven needs more casting range. The speed/acceleration changes should help make it feel less like an expensive flying paperweight, however.
I just played on the map as TvZ. Creep didn't seem too different. Ravens were noticeably more responsive and felt easier to use and control. Very small changes IMO. Good changes.
if you decrease the creep range it weakens zerg early game and really throughout the game. make ravens stronger helps terran late game. Isn't mass terran air OP enough already?

how about make creep tumours cost 20 energy instead of 25 and then change the vision radius. That would make zerg able to lay an equivalent amount of creep as before but would have to put more micro intensivity into it to accomplish the feat. (same amount of creep but requiring more tumours to do it). either that or make creep spread more stackable. (spread relatively faster when more tumours). after all, terran energy unit (mule) is stackable, and that is way OP in the late game with multiple orbitals.
08/08/2012 04:32 PMPosted by Quetzalcoatl
The creep change isn't necessary. Protoss don't have ANY of the creep problems terrans do. why? They make obs. I think the raven buff is fine, I don't think it needed one, but now that there is one people will flock to them like flies on !@#$ so we can actually see some builds around them and some mechanics developed to use them. But once terrans start building ravens, they won't be having as many creep problems.


If you bothered to read, these changes to being looked at in regards to the TvZ MU, not TvP/ZvP.
wow terrans are getting buff..NO FING WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!
08/08/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Falk
I like that fact that blizzard is giving more attention to unused units like raven, and i know this is about terrans and zerg thread but please blizzard, don't forget to take a look at the carrier too.


Protoss as a whole isn't exactly struggling vs Zerg in tournaments right now...

On the creep tumor nerf, the biggest potential issue I see is added difficulty in spreading creep down ramps. Are there maps where the ramp distance would make it impossible to spread creep down them?
I think that infestors being one of the BEST units and being DIRECTLY on the tech path to hive is the only problem I can see, if say the hydra den was the prerequisite for getting to hive (saying hydra den for when hots comes out and they are actually usefull) then you would have to go OUT of your way to make them, like how protoss has to go OUT of their way to get high templar OR colossus; I think this would be a nice change and wouldn't effect much negatively. If you wanted to try it now make the nydus worm the prerequisite and see how that shapes up, imagine if you could INSTANTLY make colossus or thors when you made a robo facility or a factory, that would be pretty stupid too. Just my two cents
if you decrease the creep range it weakens zerg early game and really throughout the game. make ravens stronger helps terran late game. Isn't mass terran air OP enough already?

how about make creep tumours cost 20 energy instead of 25 and then change the vision radius. That would make zerg able to lay an equivalent amount of creep as before but would have to put more micro intensivity into it to accomplish the feat. (same amount of creep but requiring more tumours to do it). either that or make creep spread more stackable. (spread relatively faster when more tumours). after all, terran energy unit (mule) is stackable, and that is way OP in the late game with multiple orbitals.


Overlord scouts and zergling scouts more than make up for the creep range reduction.
OK. Most people that advocate a drastic buff to raven's seeker missile forget the point that seeker missile is a very very different spell from other AOE damage spells.

The fundamental difference is that seeker missile is an instant damage while the other two main AOE damage spells--fungal growth and storm--do their damage over 4 seconds. Because they are doing damage over 4 seconds, their "DPS" is much much lower than instant damage spell such as seeker missile and EMP. For example, fungal growth's damage is 30 for 4 seconds, so its DPS is 7.5 for each unit. Storm's damage is 80 for 4 seconds, so its DPS is 20 for each unit. But because seeker missile does an instant 100 damage, its DPS is 100 for the central units, 75 for more closed units, and 50 for less closed units. So its DPS is much much higher than storm and fungal. This is why when Blizzard designs it, there are so many requirements for this spell--research, 125 energy cost, and a very slow projectile.

If the seeker missile's energy cost is reduce to 100, or its research is removed, it will be very very OP.

The reasonable buffs for seeker missile should be focused on the costs of getting seeker missile, but not some direct buffs. Therefore, some reasonable buffs for seeker missile should be:

1. Raven energy research cost reduced to 100/100, down from 150/150. Research time reduced to 80, down from 110. (Infestor's energy research time is 80)
2. Durable Materials reserach removed. The duration of Auto-Turrets and Point Defense Drones is now 240 seconds (up from 180 seconds), and the duration of the Seeker Missile is now 20 Seconds (up from 15 seconds).
Blizzard should take a look at queen instead of creep tumor. This whole imbalance was set off after the queen buff. Blizzard queen buff intention was
Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.

We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT.
We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.

Yet, queen defense, in general, became too strong. The susceptibility to all in is counterable by good scouting which the speed overlord already solved. If other race foresee an all in, they must invest in stronger defense, more cannon/bunker/etc. Zerg could just invest in more spines. Now the queen defense is just too strong for just mild aggression.

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