Testing Balance Changes

General Discussion
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Hi Blizzard! It's great they you're finally addressing the absolute DISGUSTING TvZ imbalance (Zerg favored) that has been going on for the past 3-4 months. Great update, however there are some things you should consider:

1) Ravens still cannot cast whilst being fungaled
2) Fungal outranges HSM

The speed buff won't address the underlying problem with Ravens being not used (the above), and I suspect they will continue to never be made unless this is addressed with a more realistic buff.

As long as the Zerg player isn't AFK they will still be fungeled (an extra .25 speed won't change this) OUTSIDE OF HSM range.
why dont you give tank a "hold fire" option like ghost?
08/08/2012 07:04 PMPosted by StarOFdadA
why dont you give tank a "hold fire" option like ghost?


because they already have one
I'm 100% in support of these changes as well as the tempered pace at which Blizzard is implementing them. I think a speed buff on the Raven is a great start. It's probably the lowest level buff that will increase the usefulness, but have the least potential to make them too powerful. I like it.

As for the creep nerf, it's great IMO, but I do hear you Zergy guys on the ramp issue. I wonder how hard it would be to let creep spread a couple extra spaces on ramps only..?

For you (mostly non-Terran) guys commenting on the Raven's high gas cost, it's actually not that big of a deal in the late game. Sure, they're very expensive in the early and mid, but late game Terran has no other real gas dump. That stuff really starts to pile and we either can't get rid of it fast enough or we have to take less gas, which can put us at a bit of a disadvantage, economically, since gas is income and we're effectively not pulling/spending that income vs an opponent who can. Mules help some, since they ignore saturation, but it's not a total solution. Better Ravens in the late game might open some doors for us in the gas-spending department.
08/08/2012 07:11 PMPosted by MattOverMind
Sure, they're very expensive in the early and mid, but late game Terran has no other real gas dump.


Not everyone plays bio (hint: Terran mech is the most gas heavy in the game theoretically), and even in non-mech play the combined production of medivacs, tanks, and ghosts along with factories and starports costing gas is very gas strenuous.
Raven spells need to cost less energy and/or have a longer casting range. The extra speed well help them not be suicide units when casting sm though. There is no reason sm should cost far more energy then fungal and storm when it's far less useful than both of them.
Sure, they're very expensive in the early and mid, but late game Terran has no other real gas dump.


Not everyone plays bio (hint: Terran mech is the most gas heavy in the game theoretically), and even in non-mech play the combined production of medivacs, tanks, and ghosts along with factories and starports costing gas is very gas strenuous.


Most "good" Terrans I see tend to float around 1-3k gas in lategame -- even TaeJa, which surprised me.
This is a greatly appreciated change which will hopefully help balance out the August win rates.

Can't wait to play more terran.
Why do you Dev team guys always act like this?

"The problem is with your eyes...uh... lets make a foot surgery"

pls. I really do want to help you. I really feel that the problem is not with the creep, the creep was always like this. The problem with zerg was always the larvae injection.

This kind of imbalance will appear over and over again in the metagame since zerg players start to realize a way to defend and just power drone. The problem always was the power dronning. Always. You will just change the way zergs defend themselves...and soon the imbalance will flourish again.

Tweak larvae injection...just this. Why do you want to create problems that don´t exist?
Why do you Dev team guys always act like this?

"The problem is with your eyes...uh... lets make a foot surgery"

pls. I really do want to help you. I really feel that the problem is not with the creep, the creep was always like this. The problem with zerg was always the larvae injection.

This kind of imbalance will appear over and over again in the metagame since zerg players start to realize a way to defend and just power drone. The problem always was the power dronning. Always. You will just change the way zergs defend themselves...and soon the imbalance will flourish again.

Tweak larvae injection...just this. Why do you want to create problems that don´t exist?


If Larvae injection was the problem, Zerg would be favored in ZvP. Or, assuming you think Protoss is OP too, then that would mean Protoss has to be favored in PvT.

So either way, it isn't larvae.
08/08/2012 07:15 PMPosted by Metherlance


Not everyone plays bio (hint: Terran mech is the most gas heavy in the game theoretically), and even in non-mech play the combined production of medivacs, tanks, and ghosts along with factories and starports costing gas is very gas strenuous.


Most "good" Terrans I see tend to float around 1-3k gas in lategame -- even TaeJa, which surprised me.


dont put "good" in quotations
taeja is good
there are many good terran players

it is normal to float gas because in the late game marines are almost always being spammed out as much as possible while units like medivacs have already reached their critical mass, and our gas units tend to underperform when just compared to 50 mineral marines + good micro. very sad


Most "good" Terrans I see tend to float around 1-3k gas in lategame -- even TaeJa, which surprised me.


dont put "good" in quotations
taeja is good
there are many good terran players

it is normal to float gas because in the late game marines are almost always being spammed out as much as possible while units like medivacs have already reached their critical mass, and our gas units tend to underperform when just compared to 50 mineral marines + good micro. very sad


Eh, I put good in quotations to prevent from someone saying "ONLY X is a good Terran and they neeeever float gas!" But yes, my point was that it is normal for good Terrans to float gas and as such gas cost is not a real obstacle to getting Ravens.
Didn't mean to derail. Lets stay on topic.
Why do you Dev team guys always act like this?

"The problem is with your eyes...uh... lets make a foot surgery"

pls. I really do want to help you. I really feel that the problem is not with the creep, the creep was always like this. The problem with zerg was always the larvae injection.

This kind of imbalance will appear over and over again in the metagame since zerg players start to realize a way to defend and just power drone. The problem always was the power dronning. Always. You will just change the way zergs defend themselves...and soon the imbalance will flourish again.

Tweak larvae injection...just this. Why do you want to create problems that don´t exist?


If Larvae injection was the problem, Zerg would be favored in ZvP. Or, assuming you think Protoss is OP too, then that would mean Protoss has to be favored in PvT.

So either way, it isn't larvae.


It is larvae injection and this was already explained why.

Protoss is not really affected cuz protoss attack is based on almost all-ins, timming attacks and use of FF. NOT the same kind of HARRASS that terrans do.

So...that´s why this is not affecting protoss so much. But the problem is still there. In wich way that you can see many zergs just doing the 200/200 12 min roach build and winning against protoss. Almost all wins of protosses are relied on timming pushes and all-ins. yoiu can confirm this with ANY pro player.

Terran started to have more problems cuz the way it harrass zerg is all about run-by. Once the queen was buffed, the run-by made by hellions was countered and made more difficult to execute. So zergs have now a larger window to power drone.

Is it clear?

The kind of change that is beeing made now will make difficult for zergs to defend themselves...and you can confirm this by many many posts in this thread right now. This is the goal of this change...the only problem is that this will only work for a time. UNTIL zergs realize a new way to defend themselves better. And the problem will flourish again. Cuz the problem is still there...the potential of power dronning. Larvae injection man...larvae injection...the problem is there.
It is larvae injection and this was already explained why.

Protoss is not really affected cuz protoss attack is based on almost all-ins, timming attacks and use of FF. NOT the same kind of HARRASS that terrans do.

So...that´s why this is not affecting protoss so much. But the problem is still there. In wich way that you can see many zergs just doing the 200/200 12 min roach build and winning against protoss. Almost all wins of protosses are relied on timming pushes and all-ins. yoiu can confirm this with ANY pro player.

Terran started to have more problems cuz the way it harrass zerg is all about run-by. Once the queen was buffed, the run-by made by hellions was countered and made more difficult to execute. So zergs have now a larger window to power drone.

Is it clear?

The kind of change that is beeing made now will makedifficult for zergs to defend themselves...and you can confirm this by many many posts in this thread right now. This is the goal of this change...the only problem is that this will only work for a time. UNTIL zergs realize a new way to defend themselves better. And the problem will flourish again. Cuz the problem is still there...the potential of power dronning.


/facepalm.

Injection is not the problem. It is required for zergs to maintain an economic advantage which is also required because zerg units are generally less efficient -- hence the need for mass-producing.

Saying larva injection is broken is like saying mules or chrono boost is broken: If it was, it would affect all match ups.


/facepalm.

Injection is not the problem. It is required for zergs to maintain an economic advantage which is also required because zerg units are generally less efficient -- hence the need for mass-producing.

Saying larva injection is broken is like saying mules or chrono boost is broken: If it was, it would affect all match ups.


I´m respecting your thoughts, respect mine. Facepalm to you.

I´m beeing very clear. I´m not saying to REMOVE larvae injection. I´m saying to TWEAK IT.

Ok? Is it clear bro? Thx

FYI.. CB was tweaked once. And Mules too (see the nerf about golden mineral patch).
The Raven vs Infestor battle is balanced too heavily in Zerg's favor. Since you're making it clear that you want ravens to be Terran answer to BL/Infestor late game, *and* you don't want to allow Terran to use harass to prevent Zerg from rocketing to the late game/hive economy, you should make Ravens easier and faster to field.

The two solutions that seem best IMO are:
  • Reducing the cost of Raven Upgrades
  • Increasing the speed of Raven upgrades
I´m respecting your thoughts, respect mine. Facepalm to you.

I´m beeing very clear. I´m not saying to REMOVE larvae injection. I´m saying to TWEAK IT.

Ok? Is it clear bro? Thx


Sorry if I came off as disrespectful, but this is obviously not a thread about larva injects -- it's about creep spread and Ravens. So the fact that you even bring up an incredibly unrelated topic is annoying.

Simple fact is, trying to nerf inject to balance TvZ will directly interfere with the balance of ZvP, which is already balanced, and as such can not realistically be done without also nerfing Protoss in the process, which will most likely affect PvT, and so on.

08/08/2012 07:43 PMPosted by Laertes
Increasing the speed of Raven upgrades


This is probably the better of the two options, if one is needed -- however, I doubt you could shorten HSM's research time, otherwise HSM rushing may become a problem. So maybe significantly reduce the research times of the other upgrades Ravens have (Not HSAT/Building Armor, though).
08/08/2012 07:04 PMPosted by uffie
why dont you give tank a "hold fire" option like ghost?


because they already have one

Tanks don't have the option to not fire like Ghosts do.

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