Why should you be allowed to expand early?

Protoss Discussion
Says the zerg to me as he sends a 6pool my way.

Because you will? Not once but twice? Says me.

*silence*

edit* he won btw, by denying my expo, expanding(lol) and ling-blinging me to death.
6pool doesn't usually happen against protoss because they can shut it down easily enough with a sentry and a stalker, which you can generally have as long as you don't devote all your chronos to warpgate or probes.

Scouting is your friend.
^^ I think the OP is talking about a FFE, lol :)
6pool doesn't usually happen against protoss because they can shut it down easily enough with a sentry and a stalker, which you can generally have as long as you don't devote all your chronos to warpgate or probes.

Scouting is your friend.


Facepalm. if you ffe you need to build the pylon in ur mineral line and set up a cannon and abandon the expo for now.
Yah... there needs to be an adjustment for toss to hold 6 pool off ffe or maybe nex first, but I can't say what it would have to be. If you are good enough maybe probe micro would hold a 6 pool if you pulled enough workers, but idk.
08/18/2012 02:39 PMPosted by Artisian
Yah... there needs to be an adjustment for toss to hold 6 pool off ffe or maybe nex first, but I can't say what it would have to be. If you are good enough maybe probe micro would hold a 6 pool if you pulled enough workers, but idk.


It's called forge first (aka not being greedy), scouting, and putting a cannon in your mineral line. Yup, it's that easy.
08/18/2012 02:41 PMPosted by CoW
It's called forge first (aka not being greedy), scouting, and putting a cannon in your mineral line. Yup, it's that easy.


I thought that didn't save your forge + pylon, and doomed you to be contained for the next 2 min?
Stop being bad?
08/18/2012 07:51 PMPosted by SuperSloth
Stop being bad?


Bet that useless comment made you feel special and all?

On point, I just found it humorous that FFE is considered "greedy", but the almost guaranteed double expo zerg start is just "how zerg is played".

I would accept the 6pool shutting down my early expansion if it either set him back in anyway, or posed a real risk for him to do so(risk/reward relationship).
But what *always* happens is: I lose my forge+pylon, remain contained in my main with 1 cannon,and he expands once(or twice) while inject brings up to speed with either more pressure lings or drones.

Basically he risks very little but gains a whole lot by doing something that's very easy to do and affects the entire game.

I don't think thats balanced.
6pool doesn't usually happen against protoss because they can shut it down easily enough with a sentry and a stalker, which you can generally have as long as you don't devote all your chronos to warpgate or probes.

Scouting is your friend.


What game are you playing haha?

A 6 pool hits about 2:40 depending on the map. It is impossible to have either a Sentry or stalker at that time.

Perhaps you are referring to the proper defense of this: http://media.photobucket.com/image/6%20pool/Viralrush/rsz_starcraft_6_pool.jpg build?
6pool doesn't usually happen against protoss because they can shut it down easily enough with a sentry and a stalker, which you can generally have as long as you don't devote all your chronos to warpgate or probes.

Scouting is your friend.


A sentry + a stalker to hold off a 6pool...

You're kidding right?
Hey,

Take all this lightly as i am a bronze league fat noob but recently i played a PvZ on cloud kingdom and went ffe with a forge down on 12 i know it hurts your ecc but a 6 pool is probably worse. Upon scouting (Yeah i scout) i saw the 6 lings coming, my cannon had just finished before they came to my base. What i did was bring 3 probes down and put them on hold position on the base my ramp leading to my main. The cannon took out 3 lings as they ran past and my probe wall blocked the other 3 who died to the cannon.

It may not be the best def against a 6 pool but it worked.
Hey,

Take all this lightly as i am a bronze league fat noob but recently i played a PvZ on cloud kingdom and went ffe with a forge down on 12 i know it hurts your ecc but a 6 pool is probably worse. Upon scouting (Yeah i scout) i saw the 6 lings coming, my cannon had just finished before they came to my base. What i did was bring 3 probes down and put them on hold position on the base my ramp leading to my main. The cannon took out 3 lings as they ran past and my probe wall blocked the other 3 who died to the cannon.

It may not be the best def against a 6 pool but it worked.


Cloud kingdom is a 2player map meaning he won't need to find you to send his 6 lings, so:

The lings will be made before your forge is done, they will arrive at your forge before the cannon finishes, your cannon will die and it's GG for you.
If you put the cannon in your main, it will just be finishing as the lings arrive there(they would've ran past the lone forge/pylon since there's nothing there). This is what actually happens in this scenario.

So basically your enemy was uber slow with his 6pool which allowed you to do that.

And btw I keep seeing people say "well duh I scout"...... Of course I scouted his base, that's how I knew he was 6pooling and got to make my pylon/cannon in my main, is that not beyond obvious???
The point is the 6pool denied my expo and contained me while the zerg expanded and easily overcame his early econ loss through inject.

Too easy a thing to do with low risk and high reward.
On point, I just found it humorous that FFE is considered "greedy", but the almost guaranteed double expo zerg start is just "how zerg is played".

It's only greedy if Protoss isn't aware of what Zerg might do in retaliation.

A reason people say it is greedy is because Protoss can deny expansions with Pylons while macroing hard->tech, behind a cannon or two and no army.

I wonder how changing Overlord's Creep puke to Evolution chamber will affect things... Will Spine rushes be the response to FFE? Or maybe Zerg will go Evo->Hatchery, to deny Protoss' Nexus while preventing a Pylon from denying theirs...

The point is the 6pool denied my expo and contained me while the zerg expanded and easily overcame his early econ loss through inject.

Too easy a thing to do with low risk and high reward.

So what if you pull almost all of your Probes until the Cannon at your natural finishes? If Zerg doesn't kill a good deal of Probes or deny your expansion, I suspect they are in trouble.

You think that is too low risk and high reward? How about a Pylon denying your expansion.
6pool doesn't usually happen against protoss because they can shut it down easily enough with a sentry and a stalker, which you can generally have as long as you don't devote all your chronos to warpgate or probes.

Scouting is your friend.


A sentry + a stalker to hold off a 6pool...

You're kidding right?


That's one hell of a build order he's got there.
Always open with a forge against zerg and spam chrono on probes while you scout.

Put the forge up your ramp to block it, put a gate on the other side so that only a zealot can go through, if you scout a 6 pool put a cannon in the middle, only 1 ling will be able to attack it and it will be built and deny his 6 pool, after this make immediately 3 more gates.

Take no gas and spam zealots, once you have like 6-8 just send them to his natural kill it then to check his 3rd.

Then get a gas and expand.

If you dont scout a 6 pool then expand yourself.
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=269867

Replay shows proper defense with a forge fast expand. Not a perfect example, as my opponent had some hiccups on his side. Good for showing building placement. The zerg player decided to follow with roaches after his failed attempt and I easily thwarted this.

FFE is a great way to stop the six pool. The most important thing is to spend ALL of your chrono on probes. This is where your advantage comes from. Sim city building placement also is a must, as banelings are a likely followup to a failed six pool.

I prefer to go mass sentry as it is good vs almost anything they can do. I go to 5 gates because my probe count is high enough to support it AND expand. I have the option of cancelling nexus and really powering those gates if I think I can end it, or just deny his third and tech to something else. It's important to be aggressive here i think, because of zergs' ability to power when left alone.
08/18/2012 02:39 PMPosted by Artisian
Yah... there needs to be an adjustment for toss to hold 6 pool off ffe or maybe nex first, but I can't say what it would have to be. If you are good enough maybe probe micro would hold a 6 pool if you pulled enough workers, but idk.


Just make it so that up till 3:30 any lings produced create one ling instead of two.
Or make a spawning pool require 2 drones.

If you went Nexus first against six pool you deserve to lose.
The times I've seen early pool, I just wall off completely and THEN drop a cannon. 6 lings don't get through a wall too quickly.

But, I do agree that 6 pool should set them back more than it does.
Hey,

Take all this lightly as i am a bronze league fat noob but recently i played a PvZ on cloud kingdom and went ffe with a forge down on 12 i know it hurts your ecc but a 6 pool is probably worse. Upon scouting (Yeah i scout) i saw the 6 lings coming, my cannon had just finished before they came to my base. What i did was bring 3 probes down and put them on hold position on the base my ramp leading to my main. The cannon took out 3 lings as they ran past and my probe wall blocked the other 3 who died to the cannon.

It may not be the best def against a 6 pool but it worked.


Cloud kingdom is a 2player map meaning he won't need to find you to send his 6 lings, so:

The lings will be made before your forge is done, they will arrive at your forge before the cannon finishes, your cannon will die and it's GG for you.
If you put the cannon in your main, it will just be finishing as the lings arrive there(they would've ran past the lone forge/pylon since there's nothing there). This is what actually happens in this scenario.

So basically your enemy was uber slow with his 6pool which allowed you to do that.

And btw I keep seeing people say "well duh I scout"...... Of course I scouted his base, that's how I knew he was 6pooling and got to make my pylon/cannon in my main, is that not beyond obvious???
The point is the 6pool denied my expo and contained me while the zerg expanded and easily overcame his early econ loss through inject.

Too easy a thing to do with low risk and high reward.


You can 6 pool as hard as you want on Cloud Kingdom, but you'll never get to kill the cannon.

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