Scan should no longer serve as detection.

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11/14/2012 07:11 AMPosted by nobme
Sounds like a plausible idea. :)


It sounds plausible to give our detector a detection spell that detect from about the same range as its detection?


Just as an idea, of course things would need to be changed somewhat.
11/14/2012 07:14 AMPosted by TKiNewbie
As a Protoss
As a Protoss you no longer have any rights to complain about scan. Seeing as the Oracle basically gives you a BETTER scan, for longer duration, for free (not in sacrifice of mules).


I wasn't complaining; the post was just a topic starter to see what others though and I was also being specific about WoL. I understand that HotS will be different.
If Zerg doesn't get a lair or evo, they take massive damage. If Protoss, doesn't make a cannon, or go robo, they do to. If Terran doesn't make a turret, or a raven, they just press the scan button.

If you can't see that fundamentally something is wrong with this picture, you are a Terran player.

I'm not sure if removing scan detection is the answer, but going for any cloaked unit rush against Terran is a mistake. Pros in TvT are opening quick banchee against Command center first, and getting nothing done. You're just asking to be behind if you go for this style against Terran.

That being said, I'm not sure what the answer is...
11/09/2012 06:20 PMPosted by HeReTiC
No.

Agreed.

Scan has a high opportunity cost as you're not taking advantage of MULEs, plus it's easy to hide buildings in locations that probably won't be scanned. Plus, skilled use of cloaked units can still do massive damage to Terrans even with scan.
11/14/2012 10:50 AMPosted by LoneWolf
As a Protoss you no longer have any rights to complain about scan. Seeing as the Oracle basically gives you a BETTER scan, for longer duration, for free (not in sacrifice of mules).


I wasn't complaining; the post was just a topic starter to see what others though and I was also being specific about WoL. I understand that HotS will be different.


The problem is you're looking at it from a skewed perspective.

"Scan is too good, they shouldn't have it!" isn't a valid argument. Arguing that the terrans should be forced to build ravens (a gas-intensive, long-building unit) as their only mobile detector is also invalid. Both zerg and protoss have access to cheap, fast-building detectors fairly early in the game (50/50 17sec for zerg and 25/75 30sec (20 with chrono) for protoss). The raven is 100/200 and takes 60 seconds, with no way to make it faster.

It would be the equivalent of moving overseers to hive tech or putting observers on the fleet beacon, and making both cost 100/100.

Additionally, both zerg and protoss have zero-supply ground-attacking structures for defense. Terran does not (other than the PF, which isn't going to be in the main/natural). So while turrets can detect cloaked units, you have to have more units around to defend against them. A couple cannons or spore/spine combo can fend off DTs, banshees or burrowed units. Missile turrets? Banshees maybe, but not much else.

In short, it would break terrans against cloaked unit rushes. Give terrans a cheap (say 50/50) fast-building (20 seconds) 1-supply detector from a base starport (no techlab req), and sure. Otherwise, no.
11/14/2012 11:58 AMPosted by Athena
It would be the equivalent of moving overseers to hive tech or putting observers on the fleet beacon, and making both cost 100/100.


Only if you gave nexus and hatch scan.
11/14/2012 10:50 AMPosted by LoneWolf
As a Protoss you no longer have any rights to complain about scan. Seeing as the Oracle basically gives you a BETTER scan, for longer duration, for free (not in sacrifice of mules).


I wasn't complaining; the post was just a topic starter to see what others though and I was also being specific about WoL. I understand that HotS will be different.
Well you can't just overlook what the expansion is offering, when it is only a few months away and is guaranteed going to change the game. Nobody will care about WOL balance after HOTS is released...
Well you can't just overlook what the expansion is offering, when it is only a few months away and is guaranteed going to change the game. Nobody will care about WOL balance after HOTS is released...
poor people who can't afford hots will care.


First world problems :'(
11/14/2012 12:01 PMPosted by fingrknitter
It would be the equivalent of moving overseers to hive tech or putting observers on the fleet beacon, and making both cost 100/100.


Only if you gave nexus and hatch scan.


So let me see if I understand your "point".

OP wants to remove detection from scan and move detection solely to the raven.
I pointed out this would be akin to making the other races' mobile detectors higher-tier and more expensive, like the raven.

So you attempt to counter by giving zerg/protoss extra free stuff?
NO
11/14/2012 12:16 PMPosted by Athena


Only if you gave nexus and hatch scan.


So let me see if I understand your "point".

OP wants to remove detection from scan and move detection solely to the raven.
I pointed out this would be akin to making the other races' mobile detectors higher-tier and more expensive, like the raven.

So you attempt to counter by giving zerg/protoss extra free stuff?


No no no I was simply pointing out that to make it "akin" to other races you would have to offer detection like scan.

You wanted to suggest the inconvenience of the raven, I simply wanted you to include the convenience of scan which you overlooked in your example.

^ my point, which has been scattered through this thread, is scan shouldn't change until terran is given an equally viable scouting/detecting unit (if it never happens, I won't cry about it).


So let me see if I understand your "point".

OP wants to remove detection from scan and move detection solely to the raven.
I pointed out this would be akin to making the other races' mobile detectors higher-tier and more expensive, like the raven.

So you attempt to counter by giving zerg/protoss extra free stuff?


No no no I was simply pointing out that to make it "akin" to other races you would have to offer detection like scan.


Except the entire point was that the OP was wanting to REMOVE detection from scan. If detection is removed from scan, it leaves the raven as the sole mobile detector. Expensive, high-tier, and slow to build.

You wanted to suggest the inconvenience of the raven, I simply wanted you to include the convenience of scan which you overlooked in your example.


I didn't "overlook" it. With the REMOVAL of detection from scan, the only way to make the mobile detectors "balanced" would be to push the other races' mobile detectors to higher tier, and make them more expensive. Understand now?

^ my point, which has been scattered through this thread, is scan shouldn't change until terran is given an equally viable scouting/detecting unit (if it never happens, I won't cry about it).


And this is the end of my original post, which you seemed to have overlooked:
11/14/2012 11:58 AMPosted by Athena
In short, it would break terrans against cloaked unit rushes. Give terrans a cheap (say 50/50) fast-building (20 seconds) 1-supply detector from a base starport (no techlab req), and sure. Otherwise, no.
11/14/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Athena
I didn't "overlook" it. With the REMOVAL of detection from scan, the only way to make the mobile detectors "balanced" would be to push the other races' mobile detectors to higher tier, and make them more expensive. Understand now?


He has made a few posts about lowering the cost and changing the raven (I suggested giving terran a different mobile detector) so when you replied I assumed you had read the other ones, sorry for that.

11/14/2012 12:45 PMPosted by Athena
Understand now?
11/14/2012 01:05 PMPosted by fingrknitter
I didn't "overlook" it. With the REMOVAL of detection from scan, the only way to make the mobile detectors "balanced" would be to push the other races' mobile detectors to higher tier, and make them more expensive. Understand now?


He has made a few posts about lowering the cost and changing the raven (I suggested giving terran a different mobile detector) so when you replied I assumed you had read the other ones, sorry for that.



I didn't read the entire thread, no. I got through the first couple pages, then skipped to the last two (since the other stuff was from days ago).

It's irrelevant, though, since there's no way they'll remove scan's detection. It's integral to the terran, and has been around since SC1. They'd have to revamp too much other stuff to accommodate such a drastic change.
11/09/2012 06:20 PMPosted by HeReTiC
No.


yes
cause ravens cost 200 gas and require a techlab on a starport tieing up production. go away troll.
11/14/2012 01:32 PMPosted by Athena
It's irrelevant, though, since there's no way they'll remove scan's detection. It's integral to the terran, and has been around since SC1. They'd have to revamp too much other stuff to accommodate such a drastic change.


I don't agree with the OP, but I do see scan as a band aid to terran scouting and detection; regardless of whether or not it will get changed (which would require an actual unit besides the raven) to me I see it like the infestor for zerg and the colossus for protoss.

Just because the race would fall apart with out it, just because it probably won't get changed, doesn't mean it is balanced in the sense "it's ok". Sure, its there to stay, nothing we can change and we have to live with it. It isn't game breaking, but it is a band aid.

Do you see what I mean or no?
I just think its bad that a one button scan can completely negate any stealth tactic. Toss and especially zerg already have few tools in the toolbox then terran as it is. Scan makes that even worse. Even if you manage to sneak ur way into his base and ur chomping at the bit cuz they didnt scout out or prepare for your attack one button and its all a waste. Thats ridiculously bad. Burrow has always been a major zerg mechanic that is completely shut down and in terms of use sometimes a liability because u essentially give them free hits on ur units. On the opposite end builds that go for fast banshee play with just 2 banshees is considered all in by other races goin for something similar and yet terrans do it standard. not only that but those 2 banshees can completely win the game for you. undeniable scouting and detection.....undeniable is practically the definition of overpowered. There is no reaction that can be used to counteract the objective of thta spell.

And scan oppertunity cost doesnt exist. That stopped being an excuse when drones were made to sacrifice themselves to make a building. that drone lost a lifetime of oppertunity cost. If oppertunity cost was really there you wouldnt see 10 scans blown a game to deny creep spread.

Ravens are perfectly fine. the only detector in the game that can actually kill stuff sounds pretty awesome. Hey give overseers the ability to drop turrets and seeker missiles and observers PDD and we would be on cloud 9.
11/09/2012 06:50 PMPosted by Convolution
No.
This doesn't help anyone. Get out.


He's made multiple threads on the same topic. My explanation is in the other one.

I'll summarize it now:

Ravens take too long to get to, are too costly to make (timewise and resource-wise) and suck for their cost.

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