MULEs vs Injects vs Chronoboost

General Discussion
One thing to take into consideration...

Different races are different.

Remembering to Chronoboost, MULE, or make Drones is earning it is it not?

Any one of these can be substituted for something that benefits your army; Chronoboost can be used on Warpgates, you can Scan instead of MULE or use the MULE to repair, or you can make Roaches or Zerglings instead of Drones.

It is often necessary to do so because of enemy timing attacks, and as such you are 'earning' the boost by using it to defend/attack at the right times instead of only using it for your economy.


I disagree.
Remembering to execute economic boosters should be a bonus earned to reward the player for successfully engaging the opponent.
I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean that you should only get MULEs if you spend a lot of money to do so, making you vulnerable to attacks?

Posted by EugeneTwo
One thing to take into consideration...

Different races are different.
Posted by Fencar
All are important and different. None are more or less forgiving than the other, just different.
Xion, great post. Mind if I quote you and put it in the OP?


Of course I don't mind, quote away Fencar!
11/02/2012 11:32 AMPosted by Fencar
All are important and different. None are more or less forgiving than the other, just different.


I feel like your missing some points. If a terran misses a mule they can then just drop more then one negating portions of their lost mining time by doubling it now. This can also be negated by something like a supply drop saving them from having to take the time and resourcs of building a supply depot.

Inject on the other hand once u miss it your not getting any extras ever. Those larvae are non existent because larvae do not contiously produce once u have more then 3. There is a reason pro zergs have stated if you miss an inject you lose the game. They dont say that about mules ever. If they did we would never see scans, but we see 10+ scans a game just for dealing with creep instead of ravens.

The biggest issue however is that mules allow oversaturation. A equal base terran will always have a better economy because while ur both at equal workers he is still getting bonuses from mules further increasing his economy. Protoss and zerg cannot follow this because supply dictates they will not have a big enough army to combat the Terrans larger force. Hence why scvs get sacrificed to free up supply so much or sent off to repair with the army.
I feel like your missing some points. If a terran misses a mule they can then just drop more then one negating portions of their lost mining time by doubling it now. This can also be negated by something like a supply drop saving them from having to take the time and resourcs of building a supply depot.

Inject on the other hand once u miss it your not getting any extras ever. Those larvae are non existent because larvae do not contiously produce once u have more then 3. There is a reason pro zergs have stated if you miss an inject you lose the game. They dont say that about mules ever. If they did we would never see scans, but we see 10+ scans a game just for dealing with creep instead of ravens.

The biggest issue however is that mules allow oversaturation. A equal base terran will always have a better economy because while ur both at equal workers he is still getting bonuses from mules further increasing his economy. Protoss and zerg cannot follow this because supply dictates they will not have a big enough army to combat the Terrans larger force. Hence why scvs get sacrificed to free up supply so much or sent off to repair with the army.


Missing a mule does damage a Terran player. A fully saturated mineral line gives ~850 minerals per minute. A Terran player can produce ~2 marines per minute which cost 50 minerals each so they need ~4 reactor Barracks to constantly produce marines off that income.

Now suddenly you drop 8 cos you've been missing a lot of Mules. Each Mule returns ~170 minerals per minute so their income is now 850+1360= 2210 minerals per minute. Now suddenly after one minute you'll be floating 1360 and have ~27 less marines than someone who had kept up consistent Mules and so had the infrastructure to support the consistent resource collection.

Of course Mules are MUCH more forgiving than Zerg injects, but different races are different and arguably Terran micro when it comes to their bio balls is more unforgiving than other races.

Terran need the ability to sac workers and work off mules alone to contend with Protoss and Zerg's ability to remax with Larvae/Warpgate.

An equal base Terran is unlikely to have the same worker count as you as their worker production is slower than any other race. Protoss have Chronoboost and don't need to use workers to stay on the job when building things. Zerg has larvae. Zerg gains their economy quicker with their fast drone production while Terran gains their economy slower with a slower SCV production. As a result Zerg will nearly always expand faster than Terran and Terran will nearly always expand slower. If a Zerg and a Terran are on equal bases the Zerg should be behind. This is because Zerg were able to get their economy up faster, meaning they can expand faster, gain the economic edge with their 3rd base faster and in expand faster again.
11/04/2012 01:22 AMPosted by Xion
Xion, great post. Mind if I quote you and put it in the OP?


Of course I don't mind, quote away Fencar!
Done. I decided not to use the quote tag because it would screw things up, but I did add a title to that which should keep people from thinking it's my post.

11/04/2012 06:06 AMPosted by HEF
I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean that you should only get MULEs if you spend a lot of money to do so, making you vulnerable to attacks?


No.

What I mean is that StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty should reward the player for successful engagements and not being able to freely stack economic boosters.

The way this alternate method can be done is by assigning points for each target destroyed by the player's units. Then, transfer those earned points to a progress bar so that when that progress bar fills up to the limit due to the number of successful engagements, then an economic booster is granted.

Currently, the multi-player experience in StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty is atrocious and antiqated. The beta testers who have been playing this game for years (4 - 6 yrs to be exact) are no longer challenged and paying customers are soon to follow.

I believe this suggestion will help advance the gameplay elements in the StarCraft II series and make the game far more challenging than it is now.
I'm not sure how this would help, could you explain?

As far as I can tell, if someone wins an engagement, suddenly they have map control and can take another base --like a Gold base which sadly was removed-- safely, getting that economy boost. There's also the simple benefit of having more units after a battle.
I feel like your missing some points. If a terran misses a mule they can then just drop more then one negating portions of their lost mining time by doubling it now. This can also be negated by something like a supply drop saving them from having to take the time and resourcs of building a supply depot.

Inject on the other hand once u miss it your not getting any extras ever. Those larvae are non existent because larvae do not contiously produce once u have more then 3. There is a reason pro zergs have stated if you miss an inject you lose the game. They dont say that about mules ever. If they did we would never see scans, but we see 10+ scans a game just for dealing with creep instead of ravens.

The biggest issue however is that mules allow oversaturation. A equal base terran will always have a better economy because while ur both at equal workers he is still getting bonuses from mules further increasing his economy. Protoss and zerg cannot follow this because supply dictates they will not have a big enough army to combat the Terrans larger force. Hence why scvs get sacrificed to free up supply so much or sent off to repair with the army.


Missing a mule does damage a Terran player. A fully saturated mineral line gives ~850 minerals per minute. A Terran player can produce ~2 marines per minute which cost 50 minerals each so they need ~4 reactor Barracks to constantly produce marines off that income.

Now suddenly you drop 8 cos you've been missing a lot of Mules. Each Mule returns ~170 minerals per minute so their income is now 850+1360= 2210 minerals per minute. Now suddenly after one minute you'll be floating 1360 and have ~27 less marines than someone who had kept up consistent Mules and so had the infrastructure to support the consistent resource collection.

Of course Mules are MUCH more forgiving than Zerg injects, but different races are different and arguably Terran micro when it comes to their bio balls is more unforgiving than other races.

Terran need the ability to sac workers and work off mules alone to contend with Protoss and Zerg's ability to remax with Larvae/Warpgate.

An equal base Terran is unlikely to have the same worker count as you as their worker production is slower than any other race. Protoss have Chronoboost and don't need to use workers to stay on the job when building things. Zerg has larvae. Zerg gains their economy quicker with their fast drone production while Terran gains their economy slower with a slower SCV production. As a result Zerg will nearly always expand faster than Terran and Terran will nearly always expand slower. If a Zerg and a Terran are on equal bases the Zerg should be behind. This is because Zerg were able to get their economy up faster, meaning they can expand faster, gain the economic edge with their 3rd base faster and in expand faster again.


Nice post Xion. Best in the thread +1 ;) I think what people find frustrating playing against terran is when they land one oc and land 8+ mules to mine the base dry with in seconds. This means that only one oc is at risk and there could be 5 more sitting somewhere just landing mules and it makes taking a base lategame MUCH easier (or so it would seem from the opponent). Terran have the easiest time taking islands because of this, zerg have the second since they can make nydus works and protoss have the hardest time because, well, the only efficient way to transport workers I would think would be to do mass recall with the mothership?

BUT, I think that regardless, terran has the weakest lategame and therefor needs all the minerals to stay on par, and many times it doesn't help them enough any way :S
I'm not sure how this would help, could you explain?

As far as I can tell, if someone wins an engagement, suddenly they have map control and can take another base --like a Gold base which sadly was removed-- safely, getting that economy boost. There's also the simple benefit of having more units after a battle.


Yes! Yes!!!

Winning engagements is what StaCraft II should be about, not stacking economic boosters as freely and as quickly as possible.

Winning engagements should be rewarded not frown down upon.

Winning engagements is the core concept to advancing the gameplay in StarCraft II.
So... If you use your economic boosters correctly you have a higher chance to win engagements, which lets you win the game, yet you keep saying that MULEs, Chronoboost, Injects, all are bad for the game?
11/04/2012 01:28 PMPosted by HEF
So... If you use your economic boosters correctly you have a higher chance to win engagements, which lets you win the game, yet you keep saying that MULEs, Chronoboost, Injects, all are bad for the game?


No.

When a player wins ENGAGEMENTS, that player should be granted an economic booster.

See? You're getting it!

:-)
They do get it in the form of map control already, and earlier you were saying some sort of change should be made?
11/04/2012 11:36 AMPosted by fingrknitter
I think what people find frustrating playing against terran is when they land one oc and land 8+ mules to mine the base dry with in seconds. This means that only one oc is at risk and there could be 5 more sitting somewhere just landing mules and it makes taking a base lategame MUCH easier (or so it would seem from the opponent). Terran have the easiest time taking islands because of this, zerg have the second since they can make nydus works and protoss have the hardest time because, well, the only efficient way to transport workers I would think would be to do mass recall with the mothership?
It's so hard to defend that from Zerg or Protoss though with Overlord Drops, Mutalisks, Broodlords, warp-in's, etc. Our units just aren't mobile enough. ._.
I think what people find frustrating playing against terran is when they land one oc and land 8+ mules to mine the base dry with in seconds. This means that only one oc is at risk and there could be 5 more sitting somewhere just landing mules and it makes taking a base lategame MUCH easier (or so it would seem from the opponent). Terran have the easiest time taking islands because of this, zerg have the second since they can make nydus works and protoss have the hardest time because, well, the only efficient way to transport workers I would think would be to do mass recall with the mothership?
It's so hard to defend that from Zerg or Protoss though with Overlord Drops, Mutalisks, Broodlords, warp-in's, etc. Our units just aren't mobile enough. ._.


The beauty of mass mule though is that you need only be there for a short time and the base is mined out. It is lucrative yes but it is WAY easier for terran than zerg and protoss because they need to move workers over there (protoss having the hardest time doing that) and have to deal with saturation while mules don't.

And as for mobility, I like to think that medivacs are quite mobile AND have a use outside of transporting (unlike a nydus worm, overlord(excluding supply) or the warp prism).
The flexibility the larva system gives you is zerg's MULE or chrono. Larva, whether it is natural or injected, is a third resource. Zerg is completely different from terran and protoss to the point of not being able compare x and y.
The beauty of mass mule though is that you need only be there for a short time and the base is mined out. It is lucrative yes but it is WAY easier for terran than zerg and protoss because they need to move workers over there (protoss having the hardest time doing that) and have to deal with saturation while mules don't.

And as for mobility, I like to think that medivacs are quite mobile AND have a use outside of transporting (unlike a nydus worm, overlord(excluding supply) or the warp prism).
Two problems with that from my perspective:

First, you can only have 8 MULEs active at a time while still mining efficiently, otherwise they keep changing which patches they are mining from much like how SCV's keep changing patches at 24 workers.

Second, MULEs are extremely vulnerable. They mine almost four times as fast as SCV's, but they only have 15 more HP.

So because of this, it still takes several minutes to mine out the Minerals from an un-touched base.

11/13/2012 04:26 PMPosted by sTsTtzy
The flexibility the larva system gives you is zerg's MULE or chrono. Larva, whether it is natural or injected, is a third resource. Zerg is completely different from terran and protoss to the point of not being able compare x and y.
Perhaps, but in terms of how it compares as a macro mechanic by it's self, it is more comparable to production and warp-in's. I believe I stated that the different macro mechanics are different in the OP.
Bump because some people still don't quite get it.
I for one don't
11/28/2012 06:17 PMPosted by VIPER
I for one don't
What don't you get?

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