Call to Action: November 30 Balance Testing

General Discussion
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Although I agree with you that having 20+ infestors is complete BS, I think Blizzard is afraid to nerf because the infestor fills so many holes in the zerg army it's not even funny.

But just buff a couple units and nerf infestors, when HotS swings around hopefully the infestor will become obsolete.

+1, although I would hate it if Infestors became absolutely obsolete...
While the old infestor nerf was perhaps a little too strong, this feels a little too weak.

The issue with infestors isn't so much that they are strong, it's that they are boring.

I know you guys are considering nerfing infestors and buffing hydras/mutas in HotS, and I feel that's a very good change, but I'd like to see a bit more of that thought process in WoL as well.

Have you played with just making fungal not root units in place? In the beta and early release, fungal was used to delay. Now that it has good DPS, freezing units in place serves only to make things more boring. I'd be okay with some form of other buff to make this work and not have infestors too weak, but they're a "support caster" that make up the bulk of Zerg lategame armies.
11/29/2012 06:46 PMPosted by Aeroxe
Because it already has happened to a degree. When was the last time you played a terran? I honestly can't remember.

I love Terran and I enjoy all the MU but TvZ. The amount of micro and concentration compared to Zerg is ridiculous and I cannot make a mistake or I simply just get rolled over.

3 rax reapers do make for fun TvZ though.
I'd say the issue with your patch changes was the massively over whelming nerf to infestors in the protoss vs zerg matchup and underwhelming changes to terran vs zerg.

You guys changed the game so that roughly half of all protoss units could not be targeted by fungal growth while changing ghosts for terran.

Ravens are by far the worst spell caster in the game after thors which are casters purely to be countered by high templar.

I'm not saying that the recipe of one defensive caster and one aggressive caster for every race is a wrong one, but you have not only neutered the ghost but have repeatedly ignored the raven.

The problems are

A abysmal production
B mediocre spells
C horrendous costs and upgrades

Ravens are difficult and cumbersome to use. I like many other players have found that the best use for ravens is often by themselves. Amazingly they do synergize with themselves and can be effective vs zerg.

The raven is the absolute opposite of a good spell caster.

It is strongest when in mass, it's costs warrant such horrible short term loss that the long term gain is in question. They like to synergize with themselves.

High Templar cannot be massed. It just doesn't work. In tvp the terran gets losts of ghosts. In pvp they lose out to collosi. In pvz they're a liability when made in numbers over 10 or so.

The High Templar is a brutally effective caster that won't win the game by its self.

The infestor is likewise the opposite of a good spell caster:

Infestors can be massed and are extremely effective when done so. They are good in all match ups regardless of what other units exist. They are never a liability and also synergize well with themselves.

The Balance Team has to make infestors and ravens more like High Templar. They can be different or unique but need similar characteristics in terms of usability.

Zerg players should not have over 10 infestors.
Terran players should not need 10 ravens or more for them to be effective

Keep Seeker at a suicidal range but give the ravens some flexibility so that they can be effective individually. Reduce the radius to 2 drop the damage by 10-20 and reduce the energy costs to 75. Reduce the penalty for stupid players who don't spread and increase it for those who do.

Likewise make only ghosts and high templar immune to fungal. Infestors can have their egg mechanic but they need a counter. Right now they don't have one.

Quit with the idea of balance must agree with the lore.

Battle Hellions = Biological???
Archons cannot be sniped???
Thors have energy???
Broodlords have unlimited Brood lings???
Engineering bays can't lift off???
Fungal Growth hits air and massive???
Zealots always hit fleeing targets???
Queens are not considered armored???
0 Armour vikings are armored???
None of these things make sense and guess what they're all in the game.
11/29/2012 06:49 PMPosted by Hunta
These changes are for TESTING. You have all proved to me that people will always whine if they don't get EXACTLY what they want. This is a test to see if mass Infested Terrans will be less viable. Just because the infester is not being nerfed to the ground dosn't mean you guys should all mass QQ.

this has been theorycrafted before. now, instead of Terran and Protoss having it's counters against the infestor buffed, the Egg is simply being nerfed. this nerf accomplishes little because infested terran eggs do not take aggro priority over other units, so eggs are often not even attacked anyways
That doesn't change the fact that Colossus are easier to get. They do far less DPS than Brood Lords and deal splash damage.

And you do realize that being able to remax on Corruptor/Broodlord is not cheap, and requires a HUGE bank.

...which is so readily available now with zerg's free early-mid game.

How exactly does Zerg have a "free early-mid game"?
2. Globally, Zerg players don’t have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play.

I don't normally post here, but this is perhaps one the least informed balance statement I've seen in a while that isn't from twitch chat. Although the other races admittedly win tournaments, the fundamental mechanics of zerg (creep and larva) give zerg a great advantage in lategame with regard to reinforcement. The infestor exacerbates this by effectively providing zerg a unit that functions from the mid-lategame as both it's strongest offensive and defensive unit.

Looking at infested terran eggs is a nice start, but 20 health is still very nominal and won't make a major difference. While storms will now drop its, it still does not address the issue of free supply. If you were watching game 3 of Ryung vs. Scarlett, there were more infested terrans than marines out on the field at a certain point. Not to take anything away from Scarlett (who played a phenomenal series) but she made many more mistakes than her opponent but the nature of the infestor enabled her to overcome them without undue harm to her army/supply. Ryung, on the other hand, dropped from 150-100 supply in two fungals when he got *slightly* overeager. When ryung was forced to fall back and rebuild his force, all Scarlett did was build more lings and infestors.

And there we stumble upon the largest issue with the infestor: There is no wrong time to build an infestor (barring when you lack pathogen glands). The unit covers and provides a zerg player too many avenues of gameplay as it provides army value, defensive utility and what effectively contributes to the strongest space control in the game. To fix the infestor, you have to solve this fundamental problem. Maybe it won't happen in WoL, but it's something that *needs* to be looked at.
These changes do literally nothing to fix TvZ. Gotta fix fungal and take back queen buff, Zerg should have to build units in the early game. They go fast 3 base and make nothing but drones, because they know 4 queens kill any Terran attack.
Grandmaster here, if that means anything

Egg health reduced to 80 (was 100).

In this test, we’re looking at bringing down the impact of Infested Terrans. When players have a dozen or more Infestors, they aren’t using 20 Fungals at once. Rather, they’re relying on Infested Terrans. The question we hope to answer is: Will the Zerg’s opponents kill some of the eggs before Infested Terrans spawn?

We’d like to see how this plays out on the test map. These aren’t final changes, and we’re looking for feedback that is based on play-testing. After you’ve thoroughly tested it, please join us in this discussion thread.

Thank you very much!

Can't you just have infested terran eggs, have the same attack priority, as the infested terran themselves, actually have? I hate when my units are surrounded with infested terran eggs, and are attacking something else, instead of killing the eggs, themselves.. But also, how does this help the protoss in the lategame? The super late game when protoss cannot actually beat brood lord infestor, they either A) Fungle your mothership, cant move and vortex the enemy units. B) Neural the mothership and waste the vortex. C) They spread out their units, so vortex doesn't help, clump any infestors/broodlords, so AOE from protoss can be used to max potential. I don't at all, think that you are seeing the problem, Zergs are winning in the Late game ALWAYS, but protoss are winning in the mid game, a lot why? Because immortal all in. I don't believe you are solving the problem at all, with just nerfing infested terran eggs? How does that actually help? It is almost like you are just changing something, to make people shut up about the real problems, the only way this actually helps, is storming the terran eggs, before they pop because the attack priority, was like the old planetary fortress SCV repair. Make some actual changes. This doesn't change ANYTHING, in lategame PvZ when both armies are maxed, the zerg will Always win, just by spreading their brood lords and infestors. I have played plenty of PvZ, (more then PvT) on ladder, at a decent level, and this is my 2 cents.. And my 2 cents, are that you are going half assed on these changes. Thanks.

TL;DR : Stop looking at the damn statistics, and start looking at when the protoss and zerg actually win their games. Create a game balanced THE WHOLE GAME, not the Early and Mid game, and if you get to lategame, deal with it. ZERGS ARE STILL GOING TO MAKE 40 INFESTORS! how does that change it??

If you refuse to fix the game, to make me buy hots, im done
Ok while it's great you are trying to move in the right direction this just isn't it.
-The problem is the overall utility of the infestor in the late and uber-late game. Zerg player makes infestors starting at tier 2 when they are obtainable, zerg keeps infestors alive all game continuously adding in more (20-40 infestors often which is supposed to be a support unit) while tech switching between other units to force terran/protoss to keep changing their army composition. This is problamatic as zerg already has the easiest transition from unit to unit because of Larva mechanics. The safe useful units for terran and protoss are the marine/stalker both of which are hard countered by the infestor.
-40 infested terrans are like adding 40 army supply to an already incredible late game army
-Fungal's are unlimited in the uber late game making microing marines, vikings, stalkers to combat brood lords non existent.
-Neural Parasite has the same range as vortex which is the only spell in the game protoss has to combat infestor/brood. And while terran suffers a very difficult task with this army at least you can have multiple ravens and seeker missles making the zerg struggle more if terran obtains this army.
-The flaw with the infestor being a safe all around counter to everything is it allows the zerg player to make multiple mistakes and still win the game or have a strong chance at a comeback. If a protoss or terran player makes a mistake (neural mothership, clumped vikings, etc) the game is over.
-Feedback works great vs infestors but not when fungal has a bigger range, and broodlords overhead make getting in impossible. Theoretically providing the protoss player is very fast he can do speed prism high templar feedback drops or the zerg can slap down a neural or fungal and shut it down completely.

Overall thoughts:
Protoss does not have an army capable of beating a good brood/infestor composition unless the zerg makes a big mistake (clumping vs vortex, not building static defense vs base race, etc)
Terran while having an army capable of beating brood/infestor with raven, viking, bc has a 1 in 10 shot at best of living long enough to build such a force. Even if the terran player manages to win 1 key engagement its at the stage in the game where both players have big banks then the zerg just goes mass ultra and since terrans production is the worst to deal with tech switches in the game the terran player still likely loses.

So while I understand your "winrates" (you love throwing this out there way too much) are nearly stable 50/50 I want to know winrates based on time spent in game. Terran and Protoss players who defeat zergs typically do it before the late/super late game. I'm willing to bet while protoss may be something like 65/35 in games under 17 minutes vs zerg, games over 25 minutes are likely 75/25 in zergs favor. Terran is something similar no-doubt with slightly more of a chance dealing with the first super army, but falling to the next one minutes later.
11/29/2012 06:51 PMPosted by Nasax
Quit with the idea of balance must agree with the lore.

Then marines can't shoot down battlecruisers and carriers can purify planets rights? Also, I want my Mommaship to not suck and cast that black hole on that giant batch of winfestors and GGLords so they instantly die.
Just make the *range* at which you can cast Infested Terrans 4 or 5, so that you have to expose your infestors to enemy fire to create gigantic insta-armies.

This trivial 80 hp change will do nothing.
11/29/2012 06:52 PMPosted by Swarm
How exactly does Zerg have a "free early-mid game"?

That free third. Nerfs to all other races.
We just want to see some more dramatic changes... yes? Or am I just QQing... Please tell me if I'm wrong. But that feels like the general consensus of this community.

"Buff Hydras! Nerf Infestors!" ;)

Very predictable

I dont care about infestors just give us an some good tier 3 units damnit,

Against protoss

Im sick of going bio everytime.

Against zerg i can switch from bio to mech to sky terran.

Against toss everything i have gets feedbacked
Make infestors 3 supply

Brood lords 6 supply: There is no justification for such a powerful unit - A TIER 3 UNIT - to be only 4 supply.

Also take away Queen buff - do you really like zerg getting 3 bases and droning to 70 by 10 min every game?

...If you want to make Broodlords shoot air units like everyone else's Tier 3 units get to, at six supply, then sure. Make that change. I'll gladly accept it. If they are going to keep only shooting down, then no.

Also, most people agree that Broodlords aren't a "powerful unit". Without Infestors, they are !@#$.

I find this as no surprise from Blizzard. The Psionic change was insane.

I also find that their data is pretty correct.

Watch the last FIVE tournaments.

Zerg didn't win a single one of them. Yet they're clearly "OP", if you ask anyone that's Diamond and below.
Why is anybody surprised by this? I called it a while ago that the nerf was just a placebo. I honestly didn't think the previous nerf was strong at all (at least in TvZ).
hmm i wonder if you play terran?

You are aware that Fungal is the reason infestors are broken right? Fungal has range 9 with radius 2 so effectively 11 range. Seeker missle has 6 range...tell me that isn't bull!@#$. Also watch any ipl late game TvZ and tell me how the terran could have won with out the zerg move commanding their infestors into tanks. You were on the right track with the psionic units being immune but lost your backbone to the whining swarm once again. They literally haven't been nerfed in like a year and the best you can come up with is a 20 health nerf on eggs...freaking unbelievable.

Better ideas
Fungal Radius reduced to 1.5 (which would match Storm and EMP) (Shows blizzards bias towards zerg)
Increase the supply of broodlords and/or infestors
Make Broodlings cost minerals
Remove the snare of fungal. It would still be very powerful and require more skill to use than just memorizing the timing to chain fungal.

Best idea
Revert snipe nerf to compensate (Read Qxc's post from when you were considering that nerf. You must have ignored it because it was more thought out than anything I've seen come out of blizzard since I started Sc2)

hmmmm... i wonder what race you play :P

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