Infestors in danger !!!!

Zerg Discussion
My bigger problem is now the zerg has literally no anti-armour.
You can argue roaches but those things die to marines.
Even Roach hydra loses to MMM.
So what the hell.
My bigger problem is now the zerg has literally no anti-armour.
You can argue roaches but those things die to marines.
Even Roach hydra loses to MMM.
So what the hell.

Roach/Hydra is actually surprisingly viable versus Bio and Biomech in HotS and to an extent the current metagame. The main reason it wasn't as much viable in early/recent WoL is due to the lack of access to enough gas to produce enough Roach/Hydra to match Marine production, enough Creep spread to maintain Hydra movement, and enough gas to transition strongly to a final Hive-based tech.

Stephano has showed that Roach/Hydra can defensively contest with Terran through the mid-game via the fast third strategy, good Creep spread, and finally a transition to a Ling/Bling/Ultra end-game composition once Terran has enough income/production potential.

Without the proper movement speed from Hydras, maintaining a good concave and retreating has almost never been possible. It is relatively so now in WoL ZvT (Not ZvP, however), and will be especially in HotS because of the Muscular Augments upgrade.
Obviously they will not make the unit useless right away, but patch by patch infestors are getting worse and worse ....
personally i think that terran got the best individual unit overall in HotS in the widow mine.
I dont play much (im in bronze :P) but i watch a lot and so far ive seen that the widow mines are cheap, not too hard to use, and effective. Basically they can set up in highly traveled areas and if you dont have a detector with your army, youre screwed. I think its similar to 'baneling minefields' only requiring zero micro and you keep the unit.

Protoss obviously got good stuff and the new skytoss is still OP.

What did zerg get?
Some okay buffs, the viper, and swarm hosts. Overall not very good.

The hydra speed buff imo seems to be zergs best improvement. With the crazy DPS that hydras already had combined with a better movement speed make them much more useful and viable in all stages of the game.

Muta regeneration could be helpful, but isnt much if your opponent has any sort of counter to the mutas because the regen only takes place when theyre not in battle.

The Ultra buff seems great now, but the opinion seems to be that they are too overpowered, so there will most likely be a change.

The swarm hosts may be pretty good, but I haven't seen much of them so far so I cant really make an educated statement about them.

The viper overall seems pretty useless to me. Its a hive unit that cant attack, and only has two abilities, neither of which are that great. The blinding cloud seems like it could be annoying, but you can really just move your units out of it and be fine. It pretty much seems like it will just slightly slow down ranged units. The grabbing thing looks like its pretty good though. Pull a big unit (Thor, Colossus, Ultra??) into a clump of lings and it goes down quick. With good micro I could see you dispatching 4-5 colossi with vipers and 25 or so lings behind your army to take it down.

Like I said, I'm not much of a player (I dont even have a beta key) but from what Ive seen in a lot of casts, this is what I think of the new units in the game.

tl;dr zerg got the least, terran got good stuff, protoss got op stuff
Actually blizzard has stated they want the Ultralisk to be good versus ALL ground units, so the buff to their damage is unlikely to go away. For its cost, its damage is as it should be.
Infestors have kind of become a huge crutch for zerg in a lot of ways. Infestors became the one stop answer to a lot of things an opponent might do. Then you go into late game and they become a majority of your late game composition.

Yeah low level play has a lot of slip room but they have another issue. That issue is that "infestors" is the answer to what they need to do when they run into problems. It hurts their exposure to certain bits of the Zerg arsenal and harms their growth.

I think it's a good thing that infestors are getting nerfed. I think it may well reveal a lot of flaws in the zerg mid game tech tree. That doing so will make it easier to find new solutions to fix those problems. I don't think maintaining Infestors helps any of the races.

This may not be the changes Zerg need in the long run but I think it's the right call for right now. Zerg can't move forward either through balance or innovation if Infestors remain as they have been. So maybe the answer is "Zerg wind up not having good solutions" and the solution is something new. I'd rather start down that path.
I agree, the Infestor in WoL is a crutch to the Zerg race. The thing you may not realize here is how painfully necessary that crutch is. The Roach, with it's slow DPS and inability to shoot air leaves the Zerg with a massive hole in their AA. The Queen is a unit nobody likes to build a lot of, and the Hydralisk is considered insufficient in all but ZvZ. This leaves frail Mutalisks to try to maintain the air and Corruptors. Now, these are strange units that have no utility BESIDES air-to-air combat, and don't really excel at it.

All of these problems coalesce into an incomplete race that is only viable BECAUSE of one unit. Good Infestor play is the only way into higher leagues. Tell me, if a Terran does multiple drops in your base, what stops that? Roaches that can't defeat Medivacs? Queens and Hydralisks that can't stand on their own? Zerglings that can't surround a squadron due to positioning? Banelings and Infestors are about the only good answer, but a non-recyclable melee splash damage unit is never appealing.

Similarly, what beats a Blinking Protoss deathball. Nothing, proved they use Forcefield. Any other spells are tertiary. Colossi and Immortals can incinerate Roaches all day.

A lot of Zerg's problem stems from their inability to control space, fight air, do reliable splash, and deal with armored units. Now, what exactly does the Infestor do?

I disagree that the solution here is to invalidate an entire race just to see what happens. If anything decreases the Infestor's viability, there must be massive changes to the REST of the Zerg army to compensate. Since Infested Terrans are basically situational AA units, this nerf means either Mutas, Corruptors, Hydras, or Queens need a buff.
01/09/2013 08:10 PMPosted by Herrblut
How can the main race of the expansion be ignored?

thanks for saying what all of us are thinking.
Good, after so much of this infestor crap in WoL, I will be happy to see it not used much anymore. Maybe now we'll actually get buffs to our interesting units and get a less stale metagame. Also, if this happens, zerg needs half decent aoe. Toss get colossi and hts, terran get siege tanks and hellbats, and zerg get infestors, which are getting nerfs, and banelings, which are horribly cost inefficient.
We must all QQ together to achieve our goals! lolol
01/11/2013 05:15 AMPosted by TropicalBob
As of now, I doubt Swarm Host will see much use outside of ZvZ.

You don't see much potential in ZvP? I feel that they can be extremely powerful vs a greedy sentry-turtled 3rd by making FF obsolete. Toss simply cannot engage the army if you keep observers suppressed with hydra/overseer or corruptor/overseer (I change this depending on collosus count). Terran though.. they can just scan and laugh if they get on top of the hosts.

However, I don't play at the level you do. How are they shut down at high master? It seems the host can be ignored in low numbers but the threat of massing them alone would likely force the toss to engage before they have that comfortable 170+ upgraded army--which is what I want.
I love these forums. I really do. Seriously, nowhere else can you see this type of stuff. Infestors are bad in one thread, infestors are OP in one right below it. Skytoss OP in one thread, Skytoss needs buffing in another.

It kind of makes me wonder what kind of criticisms the original Starcraft would have been subject to if this type of internet forum existed (to the same scale and scope) as it does today. Would people have complained this much about the smurfing and the 4-pools and stuff? Would the gamers of that "generation" have sucked it up and dealt with it?

Or maybe I was too young and these types of forums DID exist, but I just didn't frequent them. I don't know.

It could keep the scholars busy though! Rabble! Rabble rabble rabble!
01/16/2013 07:44 AMPosted by Vorticity
It kind of makes me wonder what kind of criticisms the original Starcraft would have been subject to if this type of internet forum existed (to the same scale and scope) as it does today. Would people have complained this much about the smurfing and the 4-pools and stuff? Would the gamers of that "generation" have sucked it up and dealt with it?

I still think Brood War was balanced a lot better than Sc2. A lot of the 2v2v2v2 games I played ended in a stalemate with everyone allying each other just to quit after playing for 2 hours. Has that ever happened in Sc2? I think the reason is that each race had good offensive and defensive options.
Zerg had Zerglings/Hydras/Ultras for its main army. You didn't have to split your resources into Roaches and Corruptors to cover ground and air. You could actually focus on strategy instead of spending resources trying to get the best ground to ground and best air to air to defeat both threats. You had Defilers to allow your army to move foward with Dark Swarm. You could Plague buildings or clumped up units to soften them up. You could snipe tanks with Spawn Broodlings before moving your army. You used Guardians to kill things like Turrets and tanks before your forces moved in. Lurkers held your position so you didn't lose the ground you gained while reinforcing.
Now, instead of Blizzard saying "LOL, this unit is for defense/harrassment/siege attacks" you could use the units creatively because they were vesatile. The last game I played, I kept 18 Lurkers in my base the whole game and still had enough supply to take out another player with Hydras/Lurkers/Mutas/Guardians. A bunch of Carriers of Battlecruisers come to your base while you have units on the field. No problem. Cast Dark Swarm and move some Hydras under it. Then use Plague to do almost 300 AoE damage. Isn't it nice to have a defender's bonus in your own base?

I don't think they really know how to do with the Infestor. It's been changed over and over. They remove Lurkers from the game and they won't give Zerg a decent AoE unit like it, even though most people prefer it to the Swarm Host which is quickly becoming the "NOOB HOST." The Burrow-charge for Ultras with solved pathing problems has been removed and so has burrow-move for Banelings which was Hive tech when your opponent should have detectors. Zerg has to use Infestors because Hydras suck so badly. Even with speed, they still only have 80 health and cost 2 supply. 50% less health per supply compared to old Hydras in Brood War. They simply don't stand up to any army with AoE.

I put together this little video to show people what Zerg could do in Brood War in case they didn't play it:
Personally I'd just rather have the move speed of infestors cut in half and their move under ground speed slightly nerfed.

Infested Terrans benefiting from upgrades was actually a pretty cool concept that I'm a little disappointed doesn't apply for Auto Turrets.

Burrow move banelings was a little broken. Kind of made Zerg a little over powered.

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