So the 4-gate to diamond thing

Protoss Discussion
01/24/2013 02:16 PMPosted by EasyAI
what about 10 gate partial gas variations that start warp-ins around 5:15? are those worse than the 12 gate version?


8 Gate zealot only variant warp in finishes at 5:40.
I'm high diamond (rank 7 atm) and 4-gate every PvP - it's probably my best build/matchup. I only deviate as a reaction to something else (like if I scout proxy gates or cannon rush). According to sc2gears, my PvP win rate this season is close to 90%, and I've taken plenty of games off masters with 4-gates in the past. I'm obviously worse than them overall, or I wouldn't still be in diamond, but so few people do "good" 4-gates that most players just don't know how to defend them. Those players may defend 9 out of 10 4gates on ladder and think they know how to stop them, but the truth is most of them are executed poorly.

Here are my random thoughts/tips -

-I do a standard 12 gate with 2 chronos on probes. My mechanics aren't great, so these are by no means optimal timings, but my first warp is usually anywhere between 5:37 (fastest I've ever hit) and 5:45.

-I don't try to hide my 4-gate. In fact, I don't even waste time chasing around their scouting probe with my zealot or trying to kill/find it at all. Trying to fake a 4-gate (fake gas, or later gates, etc) more often than not just delays the push too much, and good players will sniff it out in time to react anyway. It's so easy to scout a 4-gate that I just don't bother trying to hide it.

-I don't "hide" proxy pylons. A lot of opponents waste time trying to find a probe or hidden pylons, and all that ends up happening is their units end up out of position scattered around their side of the map while I walk up to their base with my probe when the time is right. If you watch streams of korean ladder, or top-level 4-gates, they often build the proxy pylons right next to the opponent's base in plain view.

This works because there are a lot of moving pieces to a 4-gate that lower level players don't take advantage of. You don't sit around next to your hidden pylon until your 4gates are done and then push with a bunch of units. You send your first zealot immediately out on the map toward your opponent's base (followed by your first stalker). Not only does this throw a lot of players off (i.e. if they went early sentry, you can get them to burn an early FF right there by sending your zealot up the ramp), but when the time comes, there are so many moving targets that the proxy pylons basically always go up.

I like to think of every unit at the point as having a role. You have 1 zealot, 1 stalker (with the second one building), 1 probe, and 2 warping proxy pylons. That's a total of 5 targets. The probe is the most important thing to keep alive until it builds the 2 pylons, then it becomes the least important. Whatever target your opponent focuses on, use the other ones to punish him. If he focuses on the warping pylons, dance/attack him as necessary with your zealot/stalker or send them straight toward his mineral line. If he focuses on your attacking units, the proxy pylons go uncontested, so you can just run around your zealot/stalker stalling until warpgate finishes. If he focuses just on your stalker, send the zealot toward his mineral line, vice versa, etc. Imagine it kind of like a bullfight - you give him a targets, he gets confused and chases it, you punish him somewhere else. And then when warpgate finishes, finish him off. Very few of my PvPs even go past the first warp-in.
^^ Good info, thanks.
No problem, bored at work :P I can try to post some ladder replays later if anybody would be interested.
Sure, why not? :)
sometimes terran is stupid and don't build enough bunkers after the 1rax expand
My only input to this thread is that it absolutely works. I have done nothing but 4 gates to Masters on more than one occasion.
i don't think 4gate is good against terran and zerg.
02/14/2013 08:34 AMPosted by ProxyGater
I'm high diamond (rank 7 atm) and 4-gate every PvP - it's probably my best build/matchup. I only deviate as a reaction to something else (like if I scout proxy gates or cannon rush). According to sc2gears, my PvP win rate this season is close to 90%, and I've taken plenty of games off masters with 4-gates in the past.


I also had a pretty good winrate in PvP in diamond with cannon rushing :p
02/21/2013 07:58 AMPosted by TRAvian
I'm high diamond (rank 7 atm) and 4-gate every PvP - it's probably my best build/matchup. I only deviate as a reaction to something else (like if I scout proxy gates or cannon rush). According to sc2gears, my PvP win rate this season is close to 90%, and I've taken plenty of games off masters with 4-gates in the past.


I also had a pretty good winrate in PvP in diamond with cannon rushing :p


Haha yea I don't doubt it, I'm not endorsing 4-gate over other builds PvP (I don't consider it any more or less valid than cannon rushing, which is also very effective), just saying that a lot of people dismiss 4-gate out of hand as some worthless build that's easy to execute and easy to stop, when a well-executed 4 gate will win most PvPs at least up to some point in master's.
01/23/2013 10:11 PMPosted by TechNo
It shouldn't work against terran bc any good one will have bunkers with mass repair. It may win against zerg...


4 gate is far better vs terran than zerg. You can at least hide a 4 gate vs terran.


that and its pretty unreasonable to have two bunkers done blindly when a 4g hits, so if the bunker falls its often gg
I think it IS possible to 4-gate even to masters.

Thing is, you don't just 4 gate. You have to be clever about it. You have to trick your opponents into thinking you're doing something else. Your micro needs to be perfect. Ever watch ROOTPuck? Puck 4 gates at GM level. If it can work there, it will certainly work in diamond and masters.
I think it IS possible to 4-gate even to masters.

Thing is, you don't just 4 gate. You have to be clever about it. You have to trick your opponents into thinking you're doing something else. Your micro needs to be perfect. Ever watch ROOTPuck? Puck 4 gates at GM level. If it can work there, it will certainly work in diamond and masters.


Ive watched a lot of stream even puck/leiya but when a 4 gates works at higher lvl its all about micro and perfect timing you cant really trick opponent on this he sees energy on nexus and gas count otherwise youll hit too late and 4 g wont kill him
IMO , im no pro ;)

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