Storm dropping Zergs

Protoss Discussion
01/29/2013 10:08 AMPosted by BoZiMagnet
Plenty of people didn't comment on storming larvae,
I did :)

01/29/2013 10:08 AMPosted by BoZiMagnet
I mentioned that Storm Drops as a whole are not used frequently because they require too much attention, so that's the answer to his question.
This is true, but it is also less worth it to storm Zerg than Terran or Protoss, in general. Zerg losing drones is no biggie, but losing larvae will hurt, as long as Protoss is able to save his prism and HTs, otherwise it is still wasted resources for essentially energy.
zergs losing drones is no biggie?
wut
I've always wondered, why don't Protoss storm-drop Zergs later in the game? I don't mean the drones. I mean the larvae. Larvae die to a single storm.


I would say because of 2 main reasons.

#1 It is not worth it. Storming the drones would be more beneficial.

#2 Protoss in general, do fewer storm drops, due to the APM requirements. It is really easy to load 4 zealots into a WP, and just shift click it to a mineral line, and shift click it to drop all units, and even then shift click it to go into warp mode.

Meaning, you can move a WP to a mineral line, and unload zealots, and have it ready to warp-in more units, without even having to watch the warp prism. Same with Terran doing drops, they just shift click the medievacs to do harass drops during engagements.

Storm drops require a lot of APM, you have to babysit the warp-prism, and also go through the motions of storming.

The vast majority of Protoss players, that are not playing at a Pro level,do not have the APM required to do this effectively.

Is it worth it? Yes. Are most of us capable of doing it at an effective level? No.

But, storm dropping the drones is without a doubt worth it, if able to do so properly.

---In response to people saying late game zerg has a high bank and can afford to lose the drones... I would say that simply means you are doing the storm drops incorrectly.

If you are going to storm drop a zerg, you have to be doing it thorughout the game, BEFORE the zerg gets a 200/200 army, on 4+ base.

It needs to be done before this, in order to PREVENT a 5k bank from ever occuring. That is where the true power to storm drops comes from.

The next issue, is that HT's + Storm, in PvZ, is generally a LATE game unit, you USUALLY (not always) don't see HT's w/ storm before the 15+ minute mark. Storm is just not a normal "goto" tactic before this, as it is not very effective vs Roaches. If you try to get storm too early, you will find yourself losing to roach pressure / roach max pushes. Thus delay'ing your storm, and making storm drops less effective.
zergs losing drones is no biggie?
wut
When you have 6-8 Hatcheries and about 10 mins worth of banked larvae + a bank of 5k/3k, losing 50 drones is not as big a deal for the Zerg as you think. It actually places Protoss behind if the drop does not come out alive, which is highly likely. Storming drones does not really hurt Zerg's ability to make more units. Zerg can easily replenish his drones in 2 separate volleys of production and still have units enough to beat a Protoss. Storming larvae is more beneficial, ONLY if your drop survives.
stopping their income, draining their bank assuming they have been allowed to get a bank, and a ton of larvae to reinvest in future income.....

It might not necessarily be GG, but that isn't the argument. It is a lot of damage if they cannot dodge the storm regardless of whether or not you get out safely. If your opponent is capable of just dropping 2-3k and a ton of larvae on drones without a problem you are probably already dead :/
It's only worth it if you have the APM to Storm both drones and Larvae, evacuate the Templar with the Warp Prism, then get the Warp Prism out of there before it's too late. Otherwise, losing the HTs with that much energy alongside a Warp Prism is a shame, even more so when Zerg plants a few spores.
01/28/2013 05:08 PMPosted by Zamara
Zerg is on 6 bases and maxed with a bank of 4000-5000 minerals to Protoss' 3 base economy,


You lost the game a long time ago if this is the case.
01/29/2013 08:37 PMPosted by Wingblade
You lost the game a long time ago if this is the case.
Uh... that's every lategame PvZ at pro level... My point is that with Zerg's macro momentum in lategame and a big bank that Protoss cannot dent realistically, trying to lose gas to storm larvae or drones is not worth it. Just watch some Hero against suppy, Curious, Leenock, etc... He used to use storm drops but has stopped using them as much... Because it is a waste of APM, resources and time. And in those cases, the game is typically considered even on both sides... So, no. You aren't correct at all.
because HT is too vulunerable and cost too much gas and takes forever to have enough energy for storm
also, protoss is such a gas demanding race
it might be your preference to use chargalots rather than hts, but it is the same idea.
I think you have an unrealistic view of zerg's resiliency if you think that losing a saturated base of drones is not enormous damage.

If a player has a large bank, over 1-2k, then they better be maxed and teched or they generally just have sloppy macro. That being the case, if they have a large bank then it is late game; and it is thus either going to come down to a cripplying defeat of an army followed by a push before the defeated player can remax, a slow war of attrition, or most likely both.
neither of these circumstances are unaffected by losing your econ and having to redrone. This is especially crippling in a ling composition where larvae become extremely difficult to maintain.

I hate to play the rank card(and this is with full understanding that I am currently a lowbie since I race changed lol).....but it is fairly relevant here. Lower ranked players tend to run massive college funds even in the mid-game, so a lower ranked player might take something like a bank for granted.
If a player has a large bank, over 1-2k, then they better be maxed and teched or they generally just have sloppy macro. That being the case, if they have a large bank then it is late game; and it is thus either going to come down to a cripplying defeat of an army followed by a push before the defeated player can remax, a slow war of attrition, or most likely both.
neither of these circumstances are unaffected by losing your econ and having to redrone.

I'm going to have to agree with all this.
That said, the true value ratio of gas to minerals is enormous in most circumstances in late game, which is Zamara's underlying point. This is one of the reasons late game zergs develop truly spectacular spine forests: they can afford them.
Losing 20 drones is a substantial mineral loss requiring a lot of larva to replace, but it's not really much worse than losing a 40 zergling runby, which is a typical lategame feint. It's not crippling unless it can be repeated (or unless you can crush the Zerg's army while his larva are tied up rebuilding drones), and neither are generally the case because of big banks, BL infestor zoning/control capability based on infestor energy, and spine forests. It just takes more than one larva cycle to safely engage a Zerg deathball.

Zamara's point is that trading minerals for minerals tends to work out much better than gas for minerals in the gas-bottlenecked lategame unless the trade is both very favorable and very reliable. Neither of those characterize typical storm drops where the Zerg pulls drones when the storm appears and has spines in the mineral lines taking potshots at templar. In the midgame, Protoss can get better trades, but the potential cost is higher as well because losing 3-4 HTs in mid-game is just asking to lose to a roach push.
The reason is pretty simple. If your warp prism full of expensive templar gets fungaled, you've wasted a ton of resources on nothing.
If a player has a large bank, over 1-2k, then they better be maxed and teched or they generally just have sloppy macro. That being the case, if they have a large bank then it is late game; and it is thus either going to come down to a cripplying defeat of an army followed by a push before the defeated player can remax, a slow war of attrition, or most likely both.
neither of these circumstances are unaffected by losing your econ and having to redrone.

I'm going to have to agree with all this.
That said, the true value ratio of gas to minerals is enormous in most circumstances in late game, which is Zamara's underlying point. This is one of the reasons late game zergs develop truly spectacular spine forests: they can afford them.
Losing 20 drones is a substantial mineral loss requiring a lot of larva to replace, but it's not really much worse than losing a 40 zergling runby, which is a typical lategame feint. It's not crippling unless it can be repeated (or unless you can crush the Zerg's army while his larva are tied up rebuilding drones), and neither are generally the case because of big banks, BL infestor zoning/control capability based on infestor energy, and spine forests. It just takes more than one larva cycle to safely engage a Zerg deathball.

Zamara's point is that trading minerals for minerals tends to work out much better than gas for minerals in the gas-bottlenecked lategame unless the trade is both very favorable and very reliable. Neither of those characterize typical storm drops where the Zerg pulls drones when the storm appears and has spines in the mineral lines taking potshots at templar. In the midgame, Protoss can get better trades, but the potential cost is higher as well because losing 3-4 HTs in mid-game is just asking to lose to a roach push.
Thank you :)

I really did not want to go into that much detail, but yes, essentially those were my main points against Templar drops. Zealot drops are more fruitful and are more affordable by Protoss. Losing gas units in drops for minimal gain or no gain is a significantly higher price to pay.

+1
well, for a storm drop you would use 2 hts max-1 if you had energy- as you really only need 2 storms so 150 or 300 gas for massive damage potential. you don't chase with hts-they don't move very fast- and it requires a lot of awareness and apm to pull fast enough
you would also not drop on aggro :/

you are probably going to have speed if you are warp prism harassing, and assuming you have the apm(which you shouldn't bother if you don't) you are going to look before you leap.
a speed prism can poke in and out pretty fast and outrun everything but maybe mutas.

honestly most zergs don't bother leaving infesters at bases for whatever reason, but if you did actually see one already there-and you won't be hanging around for them to arrive- you move along.

that being said, i think the minigun chargalot warpin to snipe hatches is better harass.
I wouldn't use storm drops myself because I do not have the apm, but arguing that spending 250-300 min and 150-300 gas for the potential to wipe out up to 20 workers (1000 min direct plus what they lose in income and a ton of larvae) is silly

the spine forest argument isn't quite sufficient as spines are awesome and it is built into their build and they choose exactly when and where to sac drones, while losing a base of workers is pure damage
if it were bad play you would never see it....
well, for a storm drop you would use 2 hts max-1 if you had energy as you really only need 2 storms. you don't chase with hts and if they pull fast enough its over....
you would also not drop on aggro :/

you are probably going to have speed if you are warp prism harassing, and assuming you have the apm(which you shouldn't bother if you don't) you are going to look before you leap.

So you've invested 200+50+50+200/150+150+200 = 500/500 in harass (in wp prism, HT, and wp speed) to drop 1 storm every 45 in-game seconds (can save up for 3 per HT, I think). And you're looking to get best case 1000 minerals in damage if there's no spines, no spores, no units (other than possibly infestors which could be better if they're above ground and not paying attention) IF the zerg sits and waits through 2 storms while you sit there and watch for 10 seconds for unload, storm, load, and retreat time? Hmm... I guess it could work. :)
wps dont cost gas, and you can storm pretty much instantly, and loading is instant
if you were there for 10 seconds ya, that would be bad

you only need to drop 250/150 if you can grab a ht that built up energy-so 2 or 3 min prep plus they can gain energy in the prism. half a second to fly into view with speed and drop, shift click double storm, load and gone. if you die you lost 150 gas
also, not 1k in damage. 1k +what the drones would have mined before they are replaced+all the larvae

the only danger if you have the apm is if mutas are still in play or if they have a fester right there and they are ready
wps dont cost gas, and you can storm pretty much instantly, and loading is instant
if you were there for 10 seconds ya, that would be bad

The gas cost is warp prism speed (which is common for very late game or in PvP, but otherwise not so much). Storm is instant cast but does 20 dps over 4 seconds, taking 2.5 seconds to kill probes. You need 2 to cover a mineral line. You have about 1 second to start pulling probes if you're reacting to the damage notification and not the WP on the minimap. For some reason I was originally thinking you needed 2 storms to kill a worker and that would take 8 seconds. But ok, you're looking at about a 6-8 second window of vulnerability against someone watching a map (presumably with some OL spread) with units somewhat nearby, better if they're not building spores or spreading overlords.
So, I guess it's better than I thought if you have high APM, and if you count forcing Zerg to build defenses as a positive. But mutas, infestors, or corruptors can all kill you at will if the Zerg has them and is paying attention, and one spine/spore behind the mineral line makes the approach pretty dangerous, especially if there's a queen anywhere near.
01/30/2013 12:36 PMPosted by CakeMountain
the only danger if you have the apm is if mutas are still in play or if they have a fester right there and they are ready

Or potentially corruptors, which can catch non-speed warp prisms or zone speed warp prisms towards units.

also, not 1k in damage. 1k +what the drones would have mined before they are replaced+all the larvae

Ok sure.

01/30/2013 12:36 PMPosted by CakeMountain
you only need to drop 250/150 if you can grab a ht that built up energy-so 2 or 3 min prep plus they can gain energy in the prism.

Sure, but that's kind of a big deal. 3 minutes prep is a 10-minute HT hitting at 13 minutes or a 13-minutes HT hitting at 16. And of course, you didn't need that HT for defense, did you? After all, you apparently didn't go Collossi.

Ok, against an unsuspecting enemy without good overlord spread and minimap awareness, you could probably do very well with this strat, if you had the APM. Against a Zerg that fungals or chases down any WP that shows up after 12-13 minutes or goes heavy on static D, it gets dicey.

Although you don't see storm much unless Zerg is going ling/infestor or muta/ling because it's not exactly great versus roaches. So maybe that's part of it too: making storm pay off in general without tipping off the Zerg.
The main point of my post was to discuss storming their larvae when they have lots of them banked, and killing the queens with feedbacks, preventing them from remaxing after a possible army trade. Storming workers was a side-benefit of doing this, if you could afford the energy while keeping to 1 HT per Hatchery/queen combo.
01/30/2013 01:02 PMPosted by SuicidalZerg
The main point of my post was to discuss storming their larvae when they have lots of them banked, and killing the queens with feedbacks, preventing them from remaxing after a possible army trade.

So, for a 6 hatch zerg with 3 queens, how many hatches are you going to hit at once that don't have spines/spores aorund them?

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