HotS thoughts

General Discussion
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03/18/2013 09:03 AMPosted by Dayvie
- The super aggressive play is turning out to be really fun to watch.

Agreed 100%. NR 15 isn't nearly as fun to watch.

03/18/2013 09:03 AMPosted by Dayvie
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.

I also agree. We saw several shifs in playstyle and how people approached matchups from one day to the next. I expect many more changes once the pros go home and get to to thinking about it some more.

- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.

Who knew lings countered blue flame Hellions?

- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.

Here I disagree. People playing as "Korean" had overwhelming win rates against everyone else. They're clearly OP.
Mlg was AMAZING blizz u guys should truly be proud of what u created. I still can't believe what i saw in some of those games. Life, flash,Mc, Last, Innovator, All of the players in the last 8 truly took starcraft 2 a whole new lvl i did'nt think possible. Also husky and day9 Did such a good job amping the games up with there casting they are truly gifted at what they do.
One thing to note that i think is awesome is that a zerg won and i dont think i have seen one persona complain aobut it lol. If this was WOL there would be posts flooded with o another zerg wins a major tournament blah blah. But i think that the way the game looks now and how u can truly see the skill and micro that all the races require with the nonstop defending and agression that u can truly see when a persona is playing their hearts out and just giving it all they got to win. I dont think anyone could argue that life did'nt earn that victory. I've never seen anyone play liike that it was so epic and this is coming from who could'nt stand watching zerg games in wol. I literally sat in my computer chair almost all day watching the the mlg lol becasue i literally did'nt wanna miss a moment of the action.
Hots is a masterpiece blizz keep up the good work u guys are doing a great job and it is showing. :)
Good to hear from you guys!

Keep up the good work, HotS is awesome :D


Indeed!
Its all and well to wait with the new units. What about the old units that have long been lacklustre? Nydus worms and corruptors come to mind.
Its all and well to wait with the new units. What about the old units that have long been lacklustre? Nydus worms and corruptors come to mind.
Use those units more :P Their lustre will return just fine :)
It only problem I have with the new medivacs is it almost completely removes the risk of a drop. Shouldn't dropping and getting caught be some thing you get punished for?
Something I would like personally is some changes to the other races similar to the medivac speed boost.

Oracles for example either show up and do damage if there's no defense or they don't if there is. Its very binary. As we saw at mlg though the medivacs are not like that at all. Never was there a situation where it was like "oh flash built turrets so now hes totally safe from drops".

I think an upgrade on the fleet beacon for oracles that extends their survivability/usefulness somehow even after defenses are up would be nice. I don't want just a health upgrade or something though. It should be something that takes skill to use but pays off if you use it well allowing the oracles to be effective in situations where they normally wouldn't be.

The Oracle is more akin to a banshee or Mutalisk than it is to a Medivac, although I do tend to agree that perhaps the other races COULD use some love in the same vein that Terrans have in the Medivac.

Maybe some improvements to the Nydus Worm and Warp Prism perhaps?

still too early to tell either way, but those sorts of improvements would be fun I think.


Yea it may be too early but I'm just basing this off what i have seen/experienced so far in my own play. Also I think giving all the races flexible units/abilities like the speed madivacs is just good design I mean what could it possibly hurt?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the simplest change you could make would be to remove the activation cost for pulsar beam and just have it begin draining once activated. Then you can turn it on and if you have to pull back for a moment you can still commit again soon after.


I don't know if that would be enough. I think they need some sort of skill that makes them fair better v static defense if controlled well. I remember during beta at one point Dustin said they wanted it to be like cat and mouse with the oracle, players should feel like they need to hunt them down. Perhaps they have abandoned this idea but I think they should still be pursuing it and right now they are not there. No one thinks "Oh I need to kill that thing!" they think "Oh i need a turret/cannon/spore and I'll be fine".

Even in pro games we only see oracles early on and only like 1 to 3 at most. Protoss are often pretty careless with them too but honestly why keep even try to keep them alive? They get worse over the course of a game. I have found in my games as well that it generally feels like the best thing to do with them is just deal as much damage as you can early on and then let them die cause once some static defense is up they aren't gonna do anything any more anyways.
My thoughts from what I saw at MLG:
Terran:
Speed medivacs give Terran more control over games vs Zerg and Protoss, forcing more defensive play and a later 3rd out of the latter. They are good against roach/hydra based defenses but not any better than regular medivacs vs a Ling defense

Mines, though potentially very strong are unreliable and have a poor targeting AI.

Zerg:
Muta/Ling/Bling is the best way for Zerg to beat terran.

Mutalisk regen is a bit too strong.

Most Zerg players seem to be experimenting with Roach/Hydra, but not splitting to defend drops and therefore losing. They seem to still be used to the ling based drop defense and slow medivacs. In time, I think this strategy will work reasonably well with proper control.

Protoss:
Protoss are still struggling to defend early and mid game aggression even with the M-core, and their aggressive options are still weak in comparison to the other races due to the disparity in cost efficiency of gateway units compared to the other race's basic units.

Oracles are a bit too strong, but can be easily defended with mines/static defenses/stalkers/air units, and is not a great option for being aggressive and is costly, so it sets behind other tech and units more so than the aggression options for the other races.

Skytoss is good, but if the opposing player is aggressive enough, it is nearly impossible to reach.
The problem is that while the new medivacs make for great fast paced games that are fun to watch, they're bad for the game in the sense that they kill play style diversity.

Basically people are forced into only using the fastest units available because the slow push units simply can't keep up.

To remedy this, you have to either nerf the medivac somehow, or buff everything else so that they are more viable against fast aggression. The first solution is obviously much easier, but the second might be better for the game in the long run, yet that also depends on if you guys think there's still room for slow games or whether that's just not entertaining enough for esports.

As seen at MLG, the current metagame is preventing the use of a LOT of other units because players are simply too scared to try them out against multipronged attacks. And while speedvac drops vs ling/bling/muta may be fun to watch now, eventually people will tire of it if it's the only thing they ever see. Every unit has to eventually become viable and frequently used. The ideal game is one where both players fluidly transition between everything in their respective arsenals.
Buffing harass option is always better than nerfing, not only it forces player to be more aggressive and thus increase the micro time (which is what makes an RTS fun). But it also generate more crowd appeal and make eSport more interesting to watch.

I really like the direction Hots tournament is heading. Some units that are still not used too often are:

Terran :
BC
Hellbat (hellion still used far more often)

Protoss :
Tempest

Zerg :
Swarm host
Hydra ( ZvZ is still muta vs muta and fungal is nerfed vs air so how about make this unit the replacement by making it 30% faster on creep)
dayvie ftw
03/18/2013 09:08 AMPosted by Null
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.


Imo you should explain to people at least the general concepts of how units should be used, strengths and weaknesses. Having everything as a black box might be entertaining to watch on your end, but it does turn some people away.


Half the fun is figuring that stuff out. Especially as there is sometimes no clear answer to an exact role a unit should have (which is the best kind of unit).

I bet dayvie was referring directly to Life's play. Seems kinda obvious now, but no other zerg did this... that being to get quick baneling speed to exploit the weakness in the bio + widow mine play (no tanks)
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8178677962

actually, jisoopark for the win

i posted this around a week ago saying something like "Lets stop knee jerk nerfing everyone !"

i get nothing but flame/hatred

now dayvie says it, "ZOMG DAYVIE FTW"

i've been posting on the topic of overpatching for like a year and a half now, and there has never been support for this idea in this community. LOL

this entire forum is full of agree-bot idiots and it's funny to see how quickly the general pulse of the community can change the SECOND zerg wins their first major tournament and people can't cry "Z UP" "please nerf P AIR/Mines LOL"
Few things about drop, maybe hatch tech? - in ZvZ, ling bane early games you could simply hop up your banes or drones or queens if you're getting attacked, which would be pretty cool, or use ovls to drop lings behind incoming banes, keep some lings in scouting ovls to counter attack, etc.

Hatch tech drop could be pretty cool, though im not exactly sure how it would work balance wise.
I like aggressive play, but drop play is boring to watch. Watching a Protoss move his units back and forth between expansions is just face palm worthy.
I agree with David. I've been saying, along with many others, something very similar this whole time. I tried replying with this to many of the first hate qq's.

The game was just released! Dont do anything for at least a few months (balance-wise). It's been a week and that's no where near enough for the player base to realign themselves with the brand new dynamic hots introduced!

A big change has occurred and some people would rather not adapt, evolve, improve, let go of old no longer effective strats of WOL, etc. But they will come here and verbally vomit about how their gold standard strats got them stomped!

It's new game, that was the point of the new units and other additions/subtractions.

Funny thing is... despite their miserable selves, people will play and adapt and get used to hots just fine. And when lotv comes out they'll regress right back to their self-entitled selves that we've had the pleasure of enduring this past week. (Well not everyone, some are calm, rational and thoughtful when presenting an opinion about the game... but that's the minute minority.)
The only real big issue I have is with widow mines. And no, I'm not joining the ranks of people saying they're OP, what I have an issue is with the fact they're random. They're a dice roll. Because they target things on their own without any ability to give input, it takes all of the skill out of the unit. Whether a widow mine fires into the center of a pack and takes out 20 zerglings or fires at the edge and kills 2 should be based on skill, not on the computer deciding what to attack. Dice rolls have NO place in starcraft as a competitive esport. The finals of MLG proved conclusively that widow mines are far too random imo. They need to be changed, no buffed or nerfed necessarily, but changed, so that skill plays a part in their effectiveness.
Overall the game seems balanced.Only thing i want is mech being more viable versus protoss by making siege tanks stronger in that matchup.
The only real big issue I have is with widow mines. And no, I'm not joining the ranks of people saying they're OP, what I have an issue is with the fact they're random. They're a dice roll. Because they target things on their own without any ability to give input, it takes all of the skill out of the unit. Whether a widow mine fires into the center of a pack and takes out 20 zerglings or fires at the edge and kills 2 should be based on skill, not on the computer deciding what to attack. Dice rolls have NO place in starcraft as a competitive esport. The finals of MLG proved conclusively that widow mines are far too random imo. They need to be changed, no buffed or nerfed necessarily, but changed, so that skill plays a part in their effectiveness.

placement helps with this

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